A question of plagarism.

[Lady_Rin]

Last week I collected papers that were written over the Winter holidays. I am appalled and what I am reading and on how much is just gleaned from the Internet printed out and turned in. It really hit me when I read a paper on a specific kind of cactus called a cholla (choy-ya). I only needed to read the first sentence. It was a magazine article originally written by my husband almost 15 years ago and was word for word. That student got an 'F'. it seems gross plagarism is a common practice in this day of net technology.

Many of you are students. Please discuss this as I would like your opinions on this practice. You will be graded with RepPoints since I found a new button to play with. How do I give a bad grade? *Laughter*
(http://home.earthlink.net/%7Elady_rin/audio/Laugh19.mp3)

[itrainsinheaventoo]

So it was a factual essay?

Well it's only expected that a student would do research on the internet but being a student I've been warned several times before the essay is written, it has to be my own work AND if I use pieces of info from the internet that I have to make reference to the source, or at least rewrite it in my own words.

As for word-for-word of an entire essay, I wouldn't have thought anyone would do that and expect to get away with it, because from my experience everyone has a different writing style. It would be pretty easy to know if someone did something themselves because it would be pretty hard to find a piece of writing that was of a similar style to your own.

*by writing I mean essay etc, not actually handwriting.

And as for my feelings on the student copying your husband's work, the student should have at least found out who wrote it because it was pretty stupid not to. Especially since there is a potential connection between everyone.

I hope this was helpful

[skullreken]

Are you teaching at 2nd or 3rd level? not that plagiarism is excusable either way, and it is down right stupid as itrains pointed out everyone uses different language and sentence construction when writing an essay or putting a point across so when you insert different sections of papers and articles into your essay your going to automatically detect a change in the flow of the essay.

It is too easy for people who have the luxury of being allowed to do their assignments on a computer to simply copy and paste you are right to fail people who do that even if it is only at high school it is teaching them an important lesson for life and higher education taking credit for someone else's work is no better than petty theft it's not just the facts you present, it is the work involved in gathering those facts that is essential.

In terms of high school work I think take a slightly more lenient stance which happens to be in line with the current system in Ireland I think that if some one read material form different sources and presented it re written in their own words there is no problem ad no need to use citations this home work is basically in preparation for exams they'll just be regurgitating all the stuff they read, a high school student is not going to be graduating and going straight into a research position where they will be expected to hand up papers as part of their jobs. Of course should they use direct quotes and extracts in their work they should use citation.

As for 3rd level education it's a no brainer no matter if the research is rewritten in your own words or if you used direct quotes and extras every paragraph or line should have citation the whole point of it is independent learning and developing skills you can use if you choose to pursue a career in the subject you are studying. There is a well of knowledge available to us we can build directly on this existing knowledge or use it to give us clues as to the direction to take with our own work. As Isaac Newton said "If I can see further than you it is because I am standing on the shoulders of giants" and we owe it to these giants to give them the credit they deserve because unless you make ground breaking independent discovery more often than not your work is an extension of theirs and in turn someone else work will be an extension of yours

[stints]

Hmm... I'm surprised he only got an 'F', my school suspends you for a couple of days if you are caught plagiarizing.

Honestly, writing is a pain the ass. I understand why more and more people are copying material from the internet. To be frank, most people assume they can get away with it. I have done it once though not verbatim, mostly just reading the few sources and simply rewriting it and then using other sources as citation. I know people that have do it every time they have to write something. Most teachers either don't care enough to check, don't understand the internet to check, or assume their students are honest...

[Lady_Rin]

I teach at a 2 year community college and I get students of all ages from high school seniors to retired people gone back to school. This particular incident has never happened to me and i actually had to ask about procedure. Believe it or not there is no hard and fast rule about this and I'm pretty much allowed to decide what to do. I did talk to the student who was very defiant when I asked him about it. I have had him removed from the class and marked his records and incomplete. Still I think I'm going to take a closer look at future essays.

After thinking about this today I've also decided to go back to my old way of grading.

[stints]

What's your old way of grading?

[skullreken]

what is your marking method if you don't mind me asking with the economy the way it is one of the only options available to me when I graduate in May could be to do a H-Dip and become a teacher in High school Chemistry and Biology I've allready bugun revising high school general science and biology so I can give tuition to people who are taking their final exams, and I'd be iterested i knowing a little about what would be involved in my potential career

[Lady_Rin]

I have tried to answer your post several time however I keep being bumped into advertising and lost my page. I am too frustratedright now to answer so maybe after I return from work.

[Lady_Rin]

I double checked with the school and believe it or not there is no policy for outright plagiarism. Additionally I found there are are political ramifications as well. This kids is a very popular student and his parents are well connected in our community. I want to bring him before the Student Council Court or the Ethics Board. In addition to giving him a 'F' for the paper and for the semester preceding winter break. I have also asked that he be removed from my class. I have now been told (unofficially) I can't do that. I have the papers I need to file with Admissions and I am being pressured not to. I know what is right and I want do. IMO this student deserves serious discipline especially for stealing Rhun's work. I have a feeling that by continuing with this is going to open a very big can of worms. Normally I am not unsure of what to do. Today I am.

[skullreken]

you'd be surprised people fear people with political power but they also hate them all it takes is for one person to stand up to them people will have your back. Also if you have all the evidence they will back down because once they have done their huffing and puffing and see that your not intimidated they will realise you are serious and that they will look foolish for challenging a blatant theft of of your husbands work

[stints]

But once you go down this path, you have to do it for everyone who plagiarizes. You shouldn't be doing what you're doing solely because it was your husbands work he stole. Though, you sound like a person that knows this :P

Good luck defeating the man :) you have mine and, I think, Skull behind you, if only figuratively.

[Crowned_Cumber]

Giving the person an F on the paper seems reasonable, but if they have been doing well in the class in general then doing anything more might be going a bit over board. Everyone hits bad spots after all otherwise he probibly should get into more trouble. The teachers at my high school had to deal with a similar kid. He would make anti Semitic jokes in class (which usually got suspension), disturb classes and go to "auditions" in Hawaii, but he was very rich and my school was poor so aside from a few lectures from certain teachers he never got in any
trouble.

[skullreken]

Stints is right it is a matter of principle in my last post I was going on the assumption that you are doing it because of plagiarism and the fact that you believe plagiarism is wrong and should be punished which is a worthy cause. But if it is because you feel this case is personal because he used something your husband wrote you should rethink your motives before seeing this true.

One thing that occurred to me is that your student could use the fact that it was your husbands work against you pleading that you are being extra harsh on him simply because it is your husbands work, if you have made him aware that it was your husband who wrote it.

I'm not trying to talk you out of your conviction but remember that is one counter argument you could e faced with

[Lady_Rin]

Giving the person an F on the paper seems reasonable, but if they have been doing well in the class in general then doing anything more might be going a bit overboard. Everyone hits bad spots after all otherwise he probibly should get into more trouble. The teachers at my high school had to deal with a similar kid. He would make anti Semitic jokes in class (which usually got suspension), disturb classes and go to "auditions" in Hawaii, but he was very rich and my school was poor so aside from a few lectures from certain teachers he never got in any
trouble.


Stints is right it is a matter of principle in my last post I was going on the assumption that you are doing it because of plagiarism and the fact that you believe plagiarism is wrong and should be punished which is a worthy cause. But if it is because you feel this case is personal because he used something your husband wrote you should rethink your motives before seeing this true.

One thing that occurred to me is that your student could use the fact that it was your husbands work against you pleading that you are being extra harsh on him simply because it is your husbands work, if you have made him aware that it was your husband who wrote it.

I'm not trying to talk you out of your conviction but remember that is one counter argument you could e faced with


You both make good points however the thing that made it so apparent was that it was Rhun's work and blatantly so. However I don't think I am reacting this way just because it is Rhun's work. That's really just the catalyst. What upsets me is that it he didn't even try to hide it and as I go through his folder of past assigments I am find more evidence of the same kind of behavoir. I found a paper on seismology that is very familiar and another on water resources. Nor do I think the student can be too harsh on me since that piece was originally written as part of tour script material on cactus which was then was edited to be included in a book on the desert. Last thing this after noon was the word I cannot remove him from class withut good cause. I have to prove that this si good cause. Nether can I fail him for last semester but only for the paper. I can have him brough before a board which I am going to do. I am also going t watch him and the rest of the classes much closer.

I'm glad the art students can't get away with that kind of thing.

Skull you asked about grading and testing.

The standard method is to grade on a curve and is used in many schools. It's easy and reduces the workload on teachers. I grade on a per student basis. A typical exam goes like this,

Weekly on Thurs 4hrs.
15 multiple guess questions
5 practical or application theory questions.
Short lab project.

Mids and finals are the same as above only instead of a lab there are 5 one paragraph essay questions to be answered open book and a separate lab final.


An open book tests in my classroom does not necessarily mean what we studied this week but can go back to the first day of class. Some questions found in an open book exams were not covered in class. Otherwise what's the purpose of an open book exam.

If you would like to read the original article written by Rhun please PM me.

[versusmc]

Everyone plaguirises.Face it.

If you're a teacher,you've seen it before a million times.Students are just too lazy to do something on their own.I usually write essays on my own free will just because i like the topic - the most rescent one was the existence of magic-and i spend about a month on it.But when it's done it's about 100 pages with images,researches,quotes...just cuz i like investigating.

But of course,no one is like me:P

No one will sit in a library 60 kms from their home reading up books for a grade when they can just copy it from the net.It is definitely not ok-but what can we do about it?

[stints]

Educate the masses. See, simple fix.

[mr_tzeentch]

http://www.qwantz.com/comics/comic2-1420.png

[sawreese]

Interesting cartoon. In my case, I hardly research any of the topics I write about. I just put down everything I know about the topic.... Though I'm good at philosophy and psychology, this didn't work well with physics (Once I turned in a lit paper on separation of church and state, and the teacher gave me an 81. I asked her why and she just gave me the paper w/comments. One sentence had "Too much detail" written on it, then right under it on the next sentence I started with the word this. She circled it and put "what" in bold red ink... I approached her about this and many other things and shes like "This paper is like the way you talk... It's too long and wordy. I had trouble understanding it. I'll raise your grade to an 85 but that's all"...Teachers these days. It's not my fault she couldn't understand my essay, it was written in english after all, and there was definitely no reason to take off points for that...) >.< Anyhow, plagerism should be dealt with swiftly. IMO, if it's blatant enough to get caught, the student's a retard and should be failed ^_^ I wish you luck!

[Lady_Rin]

Yesssss!!!!!!!!!! Thom Leher wrote a song about plagiarism. I agree that almost everyone who has ever written a paper has used someone else's work to some extent. I've also seen and corrected a lot of papers and and know when a student is outright plagarising vs making a citation or reference. Bear in mind that there are only so may ways to write a paper on (pick a subject) that has been written about again and again and again. However this was blatant. Not even rewritten just reformatted for appearence with his name on it. There is a difference.




1. Students are just too lazy to do something on their own.

2. No one will sit in a library 60 kms from their home reading up books for a grade when they can just copy it from the net.It is definitely not ok-

3. but what can we do about it?

1. I don't agree. I don't think laziness has anything to do with it. Second of all lazy people usually do not go to college.

2. You can read from the net, you can study from the net and yes you can cheat from the net. What does that accomplish?

3. By doing those things you are not being true to yourself. Worse you don't learn anything either.

Unlike most people I talk to my idea of education is a little different. You are here to learn how to think. Not how to read a book since you are already supposed to know how to read.

Writing a paper is the same way. Stealing someone else's material does nothing to to enhance your learning ability.

His grade for the paper was an 'F' that remains. I was not allowed to fail him so he got an incomplete for the last semester.

I have my integrity and shall not allow unethical behavior in my classroom full stop.

[skullreken]

1. I don't agree. I don't think laziness has anything to do with it. Second of all lazy people usually do not go to college.

Thats not true My university is full of people who cut class and leave assignments to the last minute because they go out partying most nights you see them stressing in the library all the time. Sure one of my old lecturers admitted that he makes his question on the chemistry exam hard on purpose so less people will answer it ad he wont have to grade it

[sawreese]

Thats not true My university is full of people who cut class and leave assignments to the last minute because they go out partying most nights you see them stressing in the library all the time. Sure one of my old lecturers admitted that he makes his question on the chemistry exam hard on purpose so less people will answer it ad he wont have to grade it

I agree completely. I'm one of the laziest people in existence, yet I have a 3.8 GPA and have been offered many scholarships and whatnot. As for the teacher part... That's just genius.

[Lady_Rin]

Lazy people do not have a 3.8 GPA. Additionally going out to party and not doing homework is not laziness. That's just normal student behavior and has been that way for as long as I can remember. Don't forget that America was founded as a two party nation. One on Friday and one on Saturday.