So the industry and the fansubbers got together at Otakon, I see...

On Aug 20, 7:00*am, Travers Naran <tna...@gmail.com> wrote:[color=blue]
> darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:[color=green]
> > On Aug 19, 8:14 pm, Travers Naran <tna...@gmail.com> wrote:[color=darkred]
> >> It's amusing how we see these things differently. :-)[/color][/color]
>[color=green]
> > It's amusing how I at least have one person who seems willing to have
> > a reasoned conversation. *I hope I may return the favor.[/color]
>
> Thank you. :-)[/color]

I'm willing to have an intelligent conversation with people who are
going want to have one. Once they bring up the Gibson Incident,
either get the restraining orders keeping me away from the female
voice talents of anime, or go the fuck away, because you completely
expose yourself as a pro-fansub thief (not talking about you, Travers,
but I think you know where I'm headed on that one).
[color=blue][color=green]
> > I think the main disagreement here is that you believe that, at some
> > point, some substantive fraction of the fanbase will pay sufficient
> > money to keep some substantive fraction (the "right-sizing" you talked
> > about earlier) of the industry going. *I don't. *Especially not the
> > way these guys are thinking.[/color]
>
> I can understand why you see the industry as spiralling to zero, but
> hopefully I can defend my position of it being non-zero.[/color]

I think I can understand that. Not that I agree with it, mind you,
but, again, such is the way of someone like you who at least wants to
try to talk intelligently.

[WB's actions against pirates of "The Dark Knight"]
[color=blue][color=green]
> > Again, it's a different model. *If the models were similar, it would
> > be as if the movie was being shot before all the money needed to make
> > the movie was raised -- and, on top of it, the piracy could so
> > completely undercut the mass appeal of the particular movie that
> > people no longer felt the need to drop their $11 (or whatever it is)
> > to go to the theatre. *(The fact that so many people _ARE_, for
> > whatever reason, not willing to do so for most movies is why you're
> > seeing the movie industry becoming more and more like the anime
> > industry in one respect: *the number of movies propping the industry
> > up is becoming fewer and fewer and fewer).[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> DVD sales are still a huge part of the equation for Hollywood studios.
> I can't find the articles now, but a significant fraction of films
> recoup their investments on DVD sales. *Even the big ones. *Although,
> this is a good point to bring up the difference between the Hollywood
> movie market and the anime market.[/color]

But here's the thing... Specifically for that one, they had something
special -- far beyond the normal DVD release after movie (or even the
normal straight-to-DVD release, as more of the lesser movies and indie
titles are having to do) -- this is probably why they could afford to
take it back to just normal interdictive measures, even though it's
far beyond anything anime would ever be able to put out there.
[color=blue]
> It seems like a significant part of the movie-watching population does
> not pirate. *Enough to give the Dark Knight a good opening weekend and
> to ensure it will have a monster DVD debut. *The Anime market (the fan
> base), as you've brought up before and I don't entirely disagree with,
> has an outsized since of entitlement to anime. *They seem to act like
> they are OWED anime and that it's somehow bizarre that anime should be
> PAID for. *(Cf. that cartoon from AnimeNewsNetwork I posted awhile ago)[/color]

I'll take it even one step further: They seem to act like they OWN
anime -- that the anime industry exists for THEM and THEM ALONE. They
have zero regard for the fact that it costs a million dollars to make
a 13-episode series of anime and another million (according, again, to
the AnimeAnime report referenced back in December of 2007) to
Americanize it. They feel they own the anime and can do whatever they
wish to do with it on their own terms, and not give two damns if the
entire house of cards they have helped build blows over, as much of it
already has.

But your thesis here is correct. Unlike movies, the significant part
of the anime-watching population pirates, and (at least IMODO) pirates
exclusively. That, and ONLY that, is why you are seeing claims of
still-explosive growth in cons like Otakon, Anime Boston, and AX.
[color=blue]
> I've been wondering why anime seems to attract this kind of fan base who
> wants it free and wants it now. *I suspect it's a combination of high
> prices and the industry (esp. in Japan) reacting far too slowly to want
> their market wanted -- quick availability of anime in their local
> language. *And I think that can still be done, but I'll get to it later..[/color]

Part of it, I think, is the "kewl" factor. The same "e-penile" thing
which drives fansubbers like Tofusensei to do what they do as fast as
humanly possible (so they can be "FIRST!!!") is the same thing which
gets fans to want to see it NOW so they don't get left behind their
buddies and they can wear all the coolest stuff to the conventions.
(I mean, think: How long have you seen those powder-blue blazers for
Ouran all over the damn place at a number of cons??)

Part of it is one big fat "FUCK YOU!!!" to the industry. Partially
for that reason, and partially because they don't give a shit. (About
much of anything.) I don't think you can find too many anime fans who
would not like to see major parts of the industry go under -- as in,
go under _NOW_. The other part is just regular societal stuff.

The problem about "reacting far too slowly to give what the market
wants -- quick availability in local language" is that you have to
justify the expense of even putting it into the local language.
Again, to even license the series (this is before ADR, production, and
probably dubbing), you're talking about $33-35K/episode -- that's to
even bring it over. That's a half-mil before we even start!

The only way a same-day model would even hope to work would require
the immediate cessation of the R1 industry and probably all foreign
(to Japan) DVD-based anime markets, for that reason.
[color=blue][color=green]
> > Back in the earlier days of the industry, fansubs may have had a
> > purpose. *That the industry (on both sides of the Pacific) couldn't
> > put the clamps on it when that purpose was ended will be their cause
> > of death.[/color]
>
> I can't entirely disagree with you there, either. *But I don't think the
> industry realised what _kind_ of fan was being bred in this environment.[/color]

There _was a time_... There _was a point_... There were shows that
even I saw in fansubs at cons and liked enough that I couldn't wait to
see them come out in the States -- and the problem now is that that
very model has killed the market so much that a number of those shows
have been cut off.
[color=blue]
> * One who is highly demanding, but so greedy and selfish that it never
> occurs to them that they should pay for their demands.[/color]

Again, as I said above, they think, now, that they own the industry,
as a user-driven industry, rather than a company-driven industry which
should damn well expect to recover their necessary costs.
[color=blue]
> The people on this newsgroup aren't really part of that group. *This new
> breed of anime fan eschews USENET and other "old school" anime fandom
> hang outs. *For example, AX maybe growing, but I doubt it's grown as
> fast as the real fan base. *Because of this, they aren't exposed to the
> old culture and mores which kept a lot of the old school honest. *And it
> explains why places like this newsgroup don't realise just how bad the
> situation is out there.[/color]

I disagree about the RAAM crew, at least the better number of them.
As I said in the original post, I really felt the non-adversarial
nature of the panel really invalidated it's point. It is "us vs.
them", especially now. If some of us had actually realized this early
enough, perhaps the argument could be even be made more salient. But
the fact is that I don't believe a lot of these people even really
care about the industry (and would openly campaign for its demise if
they could get the anime for free and on their terms as well), and
that puts many of them in the same company as the "FU" crowd I was
just talking about.

The fact is, that AX is growing is NOT a good thing. That the fanbase
may be growing even faster is far worse -- because, as I've tried to
hammer down these idiots' throats: The anime fandom is not growing --
it's growing fat. And it's time to trim the fat before the entire
body has a heart attack and dies at once.
[color=blue]
> I didn't realise it either until I found myself working with them
> recently, and it was eye-opening and a little appalling to me (as I've
> said several times already).[/color]

I can definitely understand that -- it's as I've told the people
here: You either have to accuse the anime industry of rampant fraud
(criminal and civil), or you have to admit that they are right and
that they are being killed by piracy.
[color=blue]
> They made FUN[1] of me for buying anime. O_O[/color]

Of course. And why wouldn't anyone do same at this point, given the
present environment?
[color=blue][color=green]
> > Every week that 6,000,000 episodes are viewed illegally (I'll keep the
> > $40/13 eps, though that is, for many series, quite low for season
> > sets), over $18,000,000 is lost to the anime industry. *This would
> > mean that the anime industry loses its entire 2007 DVD market _every
> > 14 weeks_. *That's why I believe you could easily sue for billions.
> > The last two years alone, they could probably claim a minimum of
> > almost $2 billion in losses to the pirates and thieves.[/color]
>
> But I'm not convinced that if you could perfectly end piracy that you'd
> recoup that money. *My gut feeling is that if you could perfectly end
> piracy, the fast majority of them would simply stop watching anime. *I
> do not believe they would have ever been a buying crowd.[/color]

But if you could perfectly end piracy:

1) The fanbase would disintegrate to a real level, not an inflated
level.
2) This WOULD put some of the companies out of business, but better
some than an inevitable all.
3) This WOULD put many of the studios out of business, but better many
of them than an inevitable all.

You see, you seem to think that the vast majority of them quitting
anime would be a bad thing.

I don't. I want them GONE. I want the fanbase to shrink back to a
real level -- even if this shuts down most of the cons and anime
events (most of the smaller ones are getting to the point the
localities no longer believe they are worth being held anyway!) --
because, if you are right and there is a non-zero "right-sizing", then
I want it there as soon as plausible. The problem is, to do that
would require a near-draconian effort.

Recouping the costs would be a matter of suing the relevant parties
and gaining judgements against them. The thing is, it still is quite
disconcerting that, for all intents and purposes, pirated anime's
value defeats legitimate anime's value by a minimum of a factor of 4.

You can't stay in business that way.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> Selling physical DVDs? No. *Selling digital streaming rights on the day
> >> the episode is aired in Japan? *Yes. *That was their message. *They know
> >> they need to find a new revenue model,[/color][/color]
>[color=green]
> > Then they need to stop -- dead stop -- the old model, because they
> > won't have the money for the change-over if it should occur. *(They
> > probably don't now -- on either side of the Pacific -- and that's why
> > I think the whole matter is screwed.) *And they need to stop it _RIGHT
> > NOW_. *Every week is another $18M down the tube, PLUS the amount of
> > good money they continue to throw after bad.[/color]
>
> We agree. :-)[/color]

I mean, as an example: I believe Ouran will be a MASSIVE loser for
Funi. MASSIVE loser. Epic fail. Why? The numbers I gave
earlier... Do you honestly believe that Funi will be able to move
43,000 $60 boxes of Ouran High School Host Club for EACH box half-
season volume?? If so, I want the number of the bridge you're trying
to sell.

And that's probably one of the last real saleable titles _left_!!
[color=blue][color=green]
> > Essentially, also, all dubs would have to cease, except for a very
> > very _VERY_ few properties (almost, if not, exclusively foreign-
> > television properties and the biggest of the movies). *As stated, dubs
> > more than double the real cost of bringing a series to America. *If
> > "bringing a series to America" becomes obsolete (as it almost
> > certainly would in this model), then so will dubs.[/color]
>[color=green]
> > The main reason you don't see this happen?? *Very simple: *There would
> > be zero need, with the possible exception of licensors of foreign-
> > television properties, to continue the industry with intermediaries
> > like the R1 companies.[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> And that is kind of my view except that Funimation would be the one
> handling the few dub releases.[/color]

Funimation, if that occurred, would probably have to contract out with
the television outlets which would do so. It's not out of the
question to believe that Viz would want a portion of that for
themselves as well.
[color=blue]
>*It's a smaller market, but it would
> exist. *And I suspect Funimation would position itself as the digital
> assistant to Japanese companies. *In other words, Funimation would
> become a service organization for these Japanese companies. *As we've
> now seen, Funimation would track down and enforce copyrights, and I
> suspect Funi may try to enter the digital market on BOTH sides of the
> Pacific--probably aided-and-abetted by Gonzo.[/color]

I address the C&D issue later, and I expect you responded.

Gonzo, I truly believe, will completely die out. If not before the
required time to either become solvent or be delisted, upon being
delisted.

This is where I think CrunchyShit and the rest of the thieves and
pirates are going to make this very difficult. It is demonstrably
either laziness or impossibility to enforce such a copyright situation
on the Internet. They have a better model, a faster model, and, most
importantly to the masses, a (mostly) free model.
[color=blue]
> More interestingly, Viz has been quietly branching out to be more than
> an anime/manga company. *I've got several novels (non-anime/manga
> related) translated and published by Viz. *As I've said before: Viz is
> merely the North American releasing arm of its Japanese masters.[/color]

The only reason I even consider Viz as part of this equation is
because of Shonen Jump -- it's clear that they either want nothing to
do with the anime industry or as little to do with it as possible.
The anime, to them, is only a merchandising arm. They are more a
publishing arm with the manga and other subsidiary outlets. (That's
one of the reasons they want nothing to do with AX.)
[color=blue][color=green]
> > The Japanese needed to be told (the moment that JASCRA started going
> > after YouTube) was that it was either going to be that they were going
> > to have to understand what was going on and deal with it _then_, or
> > they have no chance to survive the tidal wave which has swept them
> > under. *In one of my rants, I said that if the companies did not have
> > the money to prosecute the thievery on all levels (the sites, the
> > fansubbers, the fans), they didn't have the money to make the anime
> > anymore.[/color]
>[color=green]
> > It's clear -- now -- they don't have the money to make the anime
> > anymore.[/color]
>
> To be fair, that began happening 10 years ago.[/color]

It accelerated hardcore in the last three.
[color=blue]
>*All the companies gambled big starting around the mid-90s on a huge anime
> boom in Japan and they produced literally hundreds of hours of anime. *I remember
> NewType getting one of its staffer to stay in a hotel room for a week
> and watch ALL 100+ hours of anime available on TV a week. *They
> overspent on a lot of bombs, and in such a weakened state, digital
> piracy hit them.[/color]

Which was one of the reasons they FURTHER overextended into an R1
market which died out the moment people realized they could just take
the product, hence making said product financially worthless.
[color=blue]
> It reminds me of Colony Collapse Disorder in the bee-keeping industry:
> no single cause explains it, but when you add up the causes, it's a
> miracle the hives lasted so long. *In this case, the studios
> over-extended themselves, got ripped off by the TV Networks[2], dealing
> with rising labor costs[3] and now the pain of digital piracy eating
> into their revenue streams especially from over-seas.
>
> [2] I can't find the damned article now, but a couple years ago, the
> Japanese government acted on complaints from the studios that Japanese
> TV networks were grossly understating their revenues on anime.[/color]

It's a wonder to me, given all factors, why the anime industry in
Japan just doesn't throw hands up, walk away, declare a total strike
(perhaps permanent!), and say "NO MORE!!"
[color=blue]
> [3]The limiting factor of production in anime is labor, and guess what
> -- the unlimited pool of otaku labor has maxed out and the China & Korea
> animation factories are maxed out so wages/prices have risen.[/color]

Bout time there's at least an effort to pay some of these people what
they might actually be worth.
[color=blue][color=green]
> > First off, the Japanese owners and creators have the right to be hyper-
> > controlling. *It costs _THEM_ about 105 million yen or so ($1M) to
> > create one episode of anime. *It's clear, from many accounts, they
> > aren't getting the necessary monies back through the revenue streams
> > to keep it going much longer.[/color][/color]

That should be for 13 episodes, by the by. Whoops.
[color=blue][color=green]
> > The Japanese should have the right to demand anyone who watches their
> > programming outside the "free" television to pay for it. *That's off
> > the Net, DVD, or whatever other means they find. *The fact is that you
> > can say it's "hyper-control", but what stuns me is, if they're so
> > hyper-controlling, why can't they be that way with the other means the
> > shows are getting out?[/color]
>
> That's not what I'm talking about. *By "hyper-controlling", I mean
> demanding that over-seas releases be delayed by up to a year so there
> can't be any reverse importing. *By REFUSING to let ADV, Funimation et
> al to stream big hits on legitimate streaming sites. *It's the control
> they exert over their foreign licensees.[/color]

The problem with that is simple: They honestly believed the only way
they could sell to this group is to cut the price to $24.99-29.99...
Perhaps, if they had done the BVUSA model to begin with, anime would
never have gotten so big and the down-sizing could have occurred at a
time that the industry might've been able to survive.

The problem here is that they were _legitimately_ afraid of being
completely undercut, with this being the ultimate manifestation of
that undercut. If they had allowed the reverse importation, it's like
trading an end-of-season free-agent at the trading deadline -- you get
something. Now, they get nothing, because of the same undercut.

I mean, see fansubbing and piracy as the ultimate forms of reverse
importation, as you will.

And I assert again: Why wouldn't they exert that control -- it's
_THEIR_ product...
[color=blue]
> To demand people pay for use of your property is not hyper-controlling.
> * That's just justice. :-)[/color]

The problem is that most fans (see discussion above) see even paying
for the property as a similar hyper-control.
[color=blue][color=green]
> > I mean, think: *In the day and age of skyrocketing unemployment, you
> > could actually (and I'm being deathly serious here) employ quite a few
> > computer-literate people whose job would be (be you a television
> > network, the WWE or UFC, the anime industry, or whatever) to go on
> > sites like YouTube, find all the offending material, and have it taken
> > down. *If a serious effort were made to do this for any significant
> > length of time, YouTube would simply disintegrate down to just those
> > who _DO_ desire legit content, and Google will lose their shirts AND
> > their pants.[/color]
>
> Well, that's why Viacom did that reach and demanded viewing logs. *They
> wanted to prove that Google/YouTube viewers mostly watch infringing
> content. *Good luck with that, Viacom, cause you're going to run smack
> into some of the biggest teleco's on the planet who already hate your
> guts[4]. Because if they succeed in stripping YouTube of its Safe
> Harbor, then all the high-speed providers would be next, and they're not
> going to let that happen.[/color]

I'm still waiting to see (and, again, I'm sure we discuss this later
in the post) how YouTube has this safe harbor and old Napster did not.

I think it could almost be proven as a factor of infringing content
vs. legitimate content on the service itself -- and then you use the
numbers of views of each to provide the further evidence, without
necessarily (unless you wish to act against individual viewers as
well!!) going after individual viewers by getting the logs.
[color=blue]
> [4] If you remember, Cable and DSS companies were threatening to yank
> HBO and others over Viacom's pricing antics.[/color]

I think it's time to really start looking at all this as a factor of
the "user-driven Internet". This is one of the reasons that I fear
that the end result is going to be the functional end of all copyright
protection and the end of any real value at all of entertainment
intellectual property. I believe, eventually, either a real
discussion of whether the ISP's are liable may have to be made, or
copyright will have to be struck down as ineffective and
unenforceable.
[color=blue][color=green]
> > A side comment on the flip-side, though, a recent spate of Funimation
> > C&D's does leave me with one question: *If a C&D does NOT
> > automatically mean the company has already licensed the series, why
> > would the thieves cease and desist? *Perhaps a better way to state
> > it: *What legal standing would Funimation (unless they were the sole
> > R1 licensor left -- and it's not quite there _yet_...) have to issue
> > such situations and have them be legally binding?[/color]
>
> The same legal binding as a lawyer has. *In other words, Funimation has
> been retained for its legal services. *An interesting development, IMHO..[/color]

This would appear to be a precursor to Funimation being the only R1
licensor -- I don't believe that has long left, mind you, before that
becomes reality. But this would appear to be a precursor to say: "If
you want to play with us, you go through Funimation."
[color=blue][color=green]
> > That was part of my comments. *:) *You see, the good thing that fans
> > believe is the lowering of prices is going to put the Japanese out of
> > business. *As you know because I've mentioned it, Gonzo is officially
> > insolvent right now (or, at the least, liabilities > assets). *How
> > many of these companies are going to keep up if the licensing fees
> > can't be recovered either?[/color]
>
> Which brings me to a point I make later on about changing how anime is
> financed.[/color]

And, as I said, I believe that, at that point, most anime studios
would simply disintegrate immediately.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> And from what I've read on
> >> Japanese industry sites, there's still a huge revenue stream in Japan so
> >> international piracy hasn't affected their bottom line. *Yet.[/color][/color]
>[color=green]
> > My understanding is that that's almost completely merchandise.[/color]
>
> It's hard to say for sure because it's not like the production companies
> reveal how they earn their money. *I do know that DVD sales in Japan are
> still decent enough to keep them going, but certainly the extras like
> merchandising helps a lot.[/color]

My understanding is that most of the DVD sales are actually what we
would consider "Limited Edition" releases with merchandise of some
form already in them.
[color=blue][color=green]
> > Whatever the revenue stream is, one then has to ask the question: *Why
> > not just divorce R1 completely out of the equation, and basically say
> > "buy it import or go away" to the fans?? *This is why I didn't
> > completely divorce the BVUSA model, because I think it was based on
> > basically understanding that a US price model isn't sufficient to keep
> > things going.[/color]
>
> But like Hollywood, Japan realises that the prices paid in Tokyo are not
> going to be accepted in the rest of the world. *Which again leads me to....[/color]

Then get rid of that fandom, as it does you no good. In fact, I would
assert that (if not for all series, the vast majority of them) the R1
industry is a massive money-loser for Japan.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> Anime producers should switch to a fee per episode sold. *That way, the
> >> risk for the local distributors is less and gives them some hope of
> >> bringing prices down.[/color][/color]
>[color=green]
> > And then the Japanese go out of business, since they can't hope to get
> > enough money to keep going. *Again, remember that Gonzo is already
> > effectively (if not actually) officially insolvent. *Anime series like
> > the entire FMP arc and the two seasons of Kaleido Star never get made,
> > much less completed.[/color]
>[color=green]
> > I'm not saying the reasoning isn't sound, but the problem is that the
> > Japanese are starving the animators to begin with and still not
> > covering costs, in many respects.[/color]
>
> Fair enough, but at this point, their revenue streams are not going to
> magically increase. *They need to do something if they can't afford an
> all-out war on piracy, and I don't see licensing fees increasing anytime
> soon. *If anything they're going to decrease anyway.[/color]

Then they're screwed one way or the other -- and they still have no
guarantee of an income stream from the fandom on top of it.

The only thing which I see might work is the following: Licensure
before the series is ever started... Licensure as a condition of even
starting the series. This, effectively, would mean they would have to
make a pilot and shop it (much like the American model for television
series), and the series is never made unless it is sufficiently
financed through licensures and sponsorships before it even starts.

THEN we can get into how you come up with the fees, but the fact is
that it doesn't work if you don't have a sustainable income stream.
Which see ADV, Geneon USA, and BVUSA...
[color=blue]
> But a per ep fee would apply more to older, already-produced series.
> There is still a back catalog of titles that can be re-released or
> licensed, and if you can make some money on your back catalog (probably
> by streaming w/ ads), that can help.[/color]

And they'd probably have to find some way to do that to keep going in
the first place. New licenses are going to get really thin really
soon (they probably already are now, vis-a-vis R1).
[color=blue][color=green]
> > Part of that is because, in cases like I've mentioned, a lot of the
> > licensing fee has to be an "advance", since the series might not be
> > able to be completed if they don't get a license at a good price.
> > (This is part of what Gen Fukunaga has been trying to cut down.)[/color]
>
> Which means a change in financing models is needed. *It might be the end
> of the independent studio and that every anime will be produced via a
> single, major studio which can afford to aggregate the costs of hits and
> misses.[/color]

But even the major studios in Japan are getting nailed. Gonzo's
insolvent...
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> Because you don't seem to understand how the international legal system
> >> works for copyright issues. *For starters, YouTube is protected by the
> >> "safe harbor" clause of the DMCA -- and that's probably why Viacom is
> >> going to experience epic fail in their lawsuit against YouTube.[/color][/color]
>[color=green]
> > Then the anime industry is finished, and a lot of other entertainment
> > media will go with it. *If YouTube is allowed to only quarter-ass it's
> > way through with the "safe harbor" provision, why does it really _have
> > to_ remove _anything_?[/color]
>[color=green]
> > Second question: *What makes them any real different than Napster,
> > who, apparently, did not have such "safe harbor" provision?[/color]
>
> Napster did NOTHING to stop piracy: they had no de-listing policy.[/color]

Here's the point, though: Why should YouTube have to have one to gain
"safe harbor" status if it's clear that it's so damn quarter-assed,
it's not even funny.

Let me give you an example: Say I'm Diane Gibson, Deborah Gibson's
manager (stop snickering, morons, I'm trying to actually make a point
here) -- Why couldn't I go to YouTube and say that all of Deborah's
copyrighted works are to come down (except those authorized by Gibson
Inc. or other relevant copyright holders (Atlantic Records for the
older stuff, etc.)), now _AND IN PERPETUITY_, as long as Gibson, Inc.
owns the copyright?

This is where things become quarter-assed. Since the Internet has
become such a haven for criminal and civil illegal activity, it
shouldn't take a million take-down notices to take down a million
copyrighted things off of YouTube (this is why copyright has become
nigh unenforceable -- see above on the discussion of how this could,
and would have to, employ quite a number of computer-literate people
to process this number of notices...). If I own the material, I
should demand that all material in my ownership and copyright be taken
down, now and at all times in the future. You can't do that? Don't
provide the service, or prepare to have me sue your asses off.

On top of that, wasn't Napster just a medium, not unlike BitTorrent,
where individual users could provide files in their computers to a
common "market", as it were?
[color=blue]
> YouTube does have a very fast response time to copyright infringement
> requests. *In fact, it appears to be automated and they've now
> instituted the auto-scanner: it scans uploaded video for known
> copyrighted sounds and then automatically blocks the video.[/color]

We'll see about that. I can tell you from just a brief scan of the
service that they haven't done that good of a job.
[color=blue]
>*These last two things have pissed off some YouTube users who claim theydon't
> understand how their video of them dancing with their cat is infringing. :-)[/color]

Frankly, what are they dancing to? You do seem to recall that YouTube
and the Japanese had to come to a deal to even allow that kind of
stuff, with Japanese songs, to be allowed on the service.
[color=blue]
> To be protected by the "safe harbor" clause, you have to show that you
> do take down infringing material in a timely manner.[/color]

That would require quite the expenditure on both YouTube's part and
the part of the individual companies'. (See above.)
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> The precedent was made in a little noticed lawsuit between Harlan Ellison
> >> and AOL. *AOL was sued by Ellison over an act of piracy made by a USENET
> >> poster from a different computer system. *AOL appealed and the high
> >> courts agreed: AOL was protected by the safe harbor clause. *YouTube
> >> will take down the content if the copyright owner asks.[/color][/color]
>[color=green]
> > Why should it have to? *And, on top of it, why is there not the demand
> > by the copyright owner that makes it a blanket statement that any
> > copyrighted material by that owner is automatically to be taken down
> > (unless they choose to start availing some of the other systems which
> > allow this content to remain up)?[/color]
>
> Because somehow YouTube has to know the clip in infringing.[/color]

Given the amount of infringing content, frankly, the onus should be on
the uploader to establish it's not infringing. Otherwise, it probably
is. (Yes, guilty until proven innocent.)
[color=blue]
>*YouTube has an automated scanner, but it's only using a database of samples provided
> by the holders. *If the Japanese companies provide the samples required
> to auto-detect, it can, but there are no hordes of YouTube employees
> scanning for copyright infringement.[/color]

And, for that negligence, YouTube should be sued out of existence,
especially given the known problem of infringing material.
[color=blue]
> But this is the heart of copyright law for two centuries: it is up to
> the copyright owner to enforce their copyright. *No body else--NOT EVEN
> THE GOVERNMENT. *The government can only take action when prompted by a
> court decision in favor of the owner, but it's still up to the owner to
> spot the infringement and bring the case. *In fact, if you don't enforce
> your copyright, the courts can say you never had it in the first place.[/color]

Again, there's SO MUCH infringing material on YouTube that you
basically either have to hire a whole bunch of people on the holder's
end (as stated a couple times now) or go with the blanket take-down.

And that last statement of that last paragraph is exactly why I
believe, first, the anime industry is dead -- since the courts could
easily state that the copyright never existed, even on the Japanese
end, for many of these shows -- as well as that copyright might well
be declared unenforceable.
[color=blue]
> To be fair, the Japanese companies are now taking their copyrights more
> seriously, but they don't seem to be putting a lot of effort into it
> especially on clearing out the stuff from YouTube.[/color]

Provide me an office, a desk, a chair, sufficient Internet, a
sufficient computer, and a reasoned salary, and look out below. This
could be a great idea for employing the un- and under-employed.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> The more important question is this: Why aren't the companies
> >> (especially the Japanese one) using the easy-to-use YouTube interface to
> >> request infringing content be removed?[/color][/color][/color]
[color=blue][color=green]
> > I don't understand why they don't go further and demand compensation
> > from the uploaders, on top of it. *But I can't answer that question.[/color]
>
> For YouTube, that is a good question. *The uploader is easily identified
> and with a little work, you could figure out if they're in an easy to
> prosecute jurisdiction (anywhere in the G7) or not. *I suspect the vast
> majority of the uploads are from the U.S.[/color]

Ding-dong.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> The licensees can do whatever they want, but it's incredibly silly to
> >> believe that the market should ACCEPT whatever you do to them.[/color][/color]
>[color=green]
> > Why??? *The licensees should dictate to the market. *And all the
> > market can then do is say yes or no. *If they say no, they _don't get
> > the product_ (such as why I'm not going to have a PS3 any time soon).[/color]
>[color=green]
> > They bought that right (for six or seven figures, in many cases)...
> > And they should expect an opportunity to recoup that cost. *Without
> > that expectation, there is no market and no industry.[/color]
>
> I agree that if you, for example, don't like the price of an XBox 360,
> all you can do is NOT buy it. *You're not allowed to STEAL the damned
> thing. :-)[/color]

The problem is: What's occurring now is exactly that. As I said in
the last post, I don't buy into the "piracy != stealing/shoplifting"
discussion.
[color=blue]
> What I'm trying to say is that regardless of the moral rights, looking
> at it as a businessman, the audience is not buying because they don't
> like your product (or in this case, the way that product is brought to
> market). *It's time to wake up, like the music industry did, and start
> providing content in a timely manner in the manner the market wants or
> they will not buy your product.[/color]

No, they like the _product_. They want to take it on THEIR terms.
And the difference, I fear, between my stand and yours is that I
believe a significant supermajority of the fandom would rather wait to
get it free than pay for it now.

The current situation is that they get their cake and eat it too.
[color=blue]
> To their credit, companies are waking up to this idea. *But as you point
> out, it maybe too little, too late. *And without a whip to drive the
> audience to the carrot, things won't change.[/color]

What needs to happen is that the free model needs to go away, with
force. This will drive most anime fans out. Fine. There are too
many fans, still too many studios, and even one R1 licensor at this
point might, in fact, be too many for the reality of the market.
[color=blue][color=green]
> > Then, frankly, the real problem is Japan recognizing that the US
> > actually can provide them enough money to substantively survive. *If
> > the problem _is_ Japan, there is but one solution: *Cut off R1.
> > Diminishing returns, again. *(You've gone from $550M in 2004 to $250M
> > in 2007, with the expectation of it being $200M in 2008). *You are not
> > going to be able to effectively enforce the legal right to your
> > product to allow for R1 to be a meaningful industry anymore. *Get rid
> > of them and save the expense of having to deal with them.[/color]
>[color=green]
> > Since R1 can't effectively enforce their legal rights to the product
> > they license, the license then becomes useless and worthless. *Ouran
> > could be the biggest seller of 2008, but is it going to get the
> > necessary number of copies to even break even? *No, Hell No, and Hell
> > Freaking No![/color]
>[color=green]
> > The only real alternative is to make it an all-import business, and do
> > the subs in Japan and be done with it.[/color]
>
> That may happen, but for me, that's not necessarily a bad thing. :-)[/color]

I think it has to happen now. For all the reasons we've discussed.
[color=blue]
> But I do understand you don't want to see the dub industry die because
> you love their product. *And I do hope they can find a way to survive.[/color]

Frankly, the dub industry keeps me in anime. Meeting a lot of the
people behind it is one of the few reasons I would go to cons. (Laura
Bailey single-handedly saved an AX for me, and helped in saving a
second.)
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> The distributors would LOVE to release subs on-line the same day as in
> >> Japan, but the Japanese companies don't WANT to, and it seems to be for
> >> very silly and arbitrary reasons.[/color][/color]
>[color=green]
> > Then they need to be slapped (and I know what a slap means in Japan)
> > and told, simply, that their stands have made it far too late for most
> > of them to survive economically. *Period.[/color]
>
> Yup. *Sonotori.[/color]

We only really disagree on whether there's a survivable descendant of
it.
[color=blue]
> But it seems that a company has to be driven to the wall (like Gonzo)
> before they realise this.[/color]

And, by then, they're already THROUGH the wall. Where is Gonzo
getting the money to become solvent again? CrunchyShit??
[color=blue]
> Reminds me of the Detroit auto industry. *They learned nothing from
> their mistakes in the 70s, and they fell into the same trap again today:
> they produced gas-guzzlers, and when the signs were there that the
> market was changing, they simply offered bigger discounts on their
> gas-guzzlers rather than provide what the market wanted.[/color]

And most, if not all, of the Detroit auto industry is gone. Dead.
Kaput.
[color=blue]
> And now GM is facing bankruptcy.
>
> There are some bad decisions being made in Japan right now, but
> hopefully they'll learn quickly and avoid the die off.[/color]

Many of them are going to have to die, sadly.
[color=blue][color=green]
> > Here's the problem with that theory: *You still have to make sure
> > that, if the scenario ever is allowed to come to fruition, that you
> > can still make the issues irrelevant and force (yes, _FORCE_) people
> > to actually do something that I believe the vast supermajority of
> > anime fans refuse to do: *pay for the content.[/color]
>[color=green]
> > It does NO GOOD to same-day and charge $3/episode for a legal same-day
> > sub if you don't terminate all illegal subs which most fans would wait
> > 24-48 hours for and pay nothing for. *Multiply $3/ep by any decent-
> > length season, and you'll see why.[/color]
>[color=green]
> > Again, I'm not disputing the logic in the emphasis, but there is a
> > much larger issue. *It goes back that I find the 30% laughable as far
> > as only 30% never will buy. *I'd put it much closer to 80% if not
> > more.[/color]
>
> I'd agree, but I'm not sure if they'd ever buy to be honest...[/color]

And I would say that of at least 80% of the fanbase. Most estimates
and fans involved would put that number far lower.

Mike

On Aug 20, 3:56*am, selaboc <c64...@hotmail.com> wrote:[color=blue]
> On Aug 19, 11:14*pm, Travers Naran <tna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND, and just from Dattebayo.[/color][/color]
>[color=green]
> > Remember when I wrote this?[url]http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.arts.anime..misc/msg/b6304119f70cbc3e[/url][/color]
>[color=green]
> > I was pretty close to the mark. *And people didn't believe me... Hmph..[/color]
>
> It's not your numbers people didn't believe, it's that those numbers
> mean what you think they mean that they disagreed with. All those
> reasons they disagreed then still apply now. Repeating the numbers
> don't change that.[/color]

And you're still full of shit, for the same reasons you were full of
shit before.

That figure alone represents approximately a $2,000,000 loss to the
anime industry from JUST THAT ONE SITE -- _PER WEEK_ -- and, as he
demonstrated before, far more people are stealing the anime than
buying it or watching it from any legitimate channels.

Mike

[email]darkstar7646@gmail.com[/email] wrote on [Wed, 20 Aug 2008 17:36:13 -0700 (PDT)]:[color=blue]
> On Aug 20, 3:56*am, selaboc <c64...@hotmail.com> wrote:[color=green]
>> On Aug 19, 11:14*pm, Travers Naran <tna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>> > > SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND, and just from Dattebayo.[/color]
>>[color=darkred]
>> > Remember when I wrote this?[url]http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.arts.anime.misc/msg/b6304119f70cbc3e[/url][/color]
>>[color=darkred]
>> > I was pretty close to the mark. *And people didn't believe me... Hmph.[/color]
>>
>> It's not your numbers people didn't believe, it's that those numbers
>> mean what you think they mean that they disagreed with. All those
>> reasons they disagreed then still apply now. Repeating the numbers
>> don't change that.[/color]
>
> And you're still full of shit, for the same reasons you were full of
> shit before.
>
> That figure alone represents approximately a $2,000,000 loss to the
> anime industry from JUST THAT ONE SITE -- _PER WEEK_ -- and, as he
> demonstrated before, far more people are stealing the anime than
> buying it or watching it from any legitimate channels.[/color]

No, it doesn't represent any loss of money at all. You can't be sure
that if they were unable to download or pirate the content in any way
that they would purchase the episodes. My bet is that no more than 50%
would buy it.

On Aug 20, 9:28*am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:[color=blue]
> Travers Naran wrote:[color=green]
> > It's amusing how we see these things differently. :-)[/color]
>
> * * * * Starky believes the world is dark and evil and the only way anyone does
> anything right is by iron fist of law. And threat of their cellmate
> Bubba. And maybe not then.
>
> * * * * This will tend to color his view on most things.[/color]

You're right. The only way you can keep order, especially as more and
more have nothing left to lose, IS by the iron fist of law. Would you
like to ask the good people left in New Orleans about the alternative?

(This, by the by, is the main reason I do not believe there will be an
election this November, but that's for the political newsgroups to
flame-war over.)

Have you ever heard of the old saying: "The only reason the cops can
enforce the law is because they can shoot you."? That's about as
close to a true reading of law enforcement (and why most cities
couldn't enforce their laws if they tried -- not enough jail space,
and no real willingness to pull out the guns when they might become
necessary...) as I've ever read.

And, trust me, the only way any degree of law and order is kept behind
bars is threats of massive violence. You ever see someone spray gas
into a snitch's cell and light the match?? I know it occurs, I saw
the smoke. Also saw the riot patrol come out to carry his ass out
when it was over.

The fact that it colors my view on things still doesn't make the view
inaccurate, there or here. The only basis that the copyright holders
have to take the actions they need to take to survive financially IS
the law, hence, if it has to come down to an iron fist on the
Internet, I'll take my lumps, but I don't think you're prepared to
have your lumps be taken.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> And note: *That's not just six million downloaded -- that's six
> >> million just _viewed_. *I'll get back to that later with some of the
> >> more laughable stuff later.[/color][/color]
>[color=green]
> > Remember when someone refused to accept my claim of a similar number? :-)[/color]
>
> * * * * Viewed is going to be a much larger number than downloaded, which -- of
> necessity -- would be much higher than "bought" even if all the people
> inclined to purchase were to do so, since there will be a lot of
> downloads and views by those who don't want to pay, can't pay, or who --
> after seeing whatever it was -- decide it's not for them.[/color]

Quoted from the Mikhail Koulikov article (http://
[url]www.animenewsnetwork.com/convention/2008/fansubs-and-industry-panel[/url]),
draw your conclusions:

"All of these factors combine to produce some stunning figures: in one
recent week, there were at least six million fansubs viewed, according
to research conducted by Central Park Media, and in fact, there are
more viewers watching the fansubbed versions of some anime than there
are people who have legally bought the DVD releases of those series."

The fact is that there should not be any decision as to whether an
anime is "for them" until they have the right to view it for
themselves, and not just take that right whenever it suits them.

I mean, that would be like me deciding the PS3 is not for me after I
shoplifted one and tried to play it for 9 months and didn't like the
Sixaxis (or whatever it's called) controller.
[color=blue]
> * * * * Six million views of multiple shows? Yeah? And? That's not even a large
> audience for a SINGLE REAL TV SHOW.[/color]

But it's a GIGANTIC audience for anime. You're taking this completely
out of scale.

Let me put this to the type of scale it could be. You would have
trouble, right now, fitting AX into some football stadiums. That's
how large anime has gotten, almost exclusively on thievery, piracy,
and fansubs.

And, here's the final kicker: Not one of those views is legal, not
one of those views is authorized, and every one of those views should
be, therefore, compensated.
[color=blue]
> * * * * Starky still doesn't realize that the Big Boys already "get it" -- and
> are going with the flow. Doctor Who eps are available for download
> across the world within an **HOUR** of first airing. Pirated, no doubt.[/color]

And you don't realize that you are NOT -- and probably NEVER WILL BE
-- dealing with the same business model, you blooming fucking
idiot!!! They need the money that these first views would provide to
stay alive, especially as the DVD anime industry, especially outside
of Japan and almost completely outside of merchandise inserts, dies!
[color=blue]
> * * * * The BBC does nothing against this as long as they aren't being sold,
> despite the fact that it's by FAR their biggest cash cow. Why?[/color]

Because the BBC is probably as corrupt as a lot of the pirates (which
see the recent fines against the Beeb for trying to put on "phone
competitions" in which none of the real callers actually ever won and
the real prizes were never given away -- [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7497168.stm[/url]),
and should be taken from the air as a result.

Yes, I AM talking about the BBC.
[color=blue]
> * * * * Because when they release the stuff for sale, people DO buy it.[/color]

In such laughably small numbers that even people who believe in saving
anime now believe that companies should be satisfied when the DVD
sales of their titles hit two thousand.
[color=blue]
> * * * * Fans DO. Teenage fans, old fans, all fans, there's some who don't, but
> always some who do. You sell to those who do.[/color]

And when there's no real prayer of recovering the better part of $2
million for every 13 episodes (on both sides of the Pacific), then
what?
[color=blue]
> * * * * CBS "gets it". They provide SUPPORT for the fans -- down to providing
> clips of "evidence" for the fanfic writers to support any pairing you
> can imagine. They provide downloads, take fan advice, and -- again
> unless it's blatant Make Money stuff -- rarely bother the downloaders
> putting CSI on the Net.[/color]

AND YOU ARE -- _AGAIN_ -- NOT TALKING THE SAME BUSINESS MODEL.

CSI is already paid for when it hits air. Anime, for the better part,
is NOT!!!!

Jesus Christ, when are you going to get it??

You are attempting to apply the same business model that exists in
American television to anime in Japan, and I'm not going to let you
even THINK of getting away with that one.

If CSI had the same business model, the production company would have
to pay CBS for the time, seek its own sponsors, and what have you.
[color=blue]
> * * * * Like Napster, Crunchyroll is going legit from being criminal, and that,
> too, is a matter of someone in the industry "getting it".[/color]

Oh fuck no. Oh fuck no. If they actually wanted to go legit, they'd
wipe out their entire customer base and their entire catalog of
illegal material and start from zero legit.

I get it, moron.

Mike (And, let's not forget, Napster only exists because the music
companies now essentially own it.)

On Aug 20, 9:57*am, "Blade" <kumonr...@hotmail.com> wrote:[color=blue]
> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in messagenews:g8hg98$jjl$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>[color=green]
> > Like Napster, Crunchyroll is going legit from being criminal, and that,
> > too, is a matter of someone in the industry "getting it".[/color]
>
> And what, precisely, is it that they are "getting"?[/color]

Oh, I'm sure the great thief defender Sea Wasp will answer that --
yep, in his/her next response.
[color=blue]
> Napster was shut down by court order and then they used its well-known brand
> name and logo for a completely different pay service.[/color]

I actually thought they had to sell all such trademarks to pay off the
lawsuits they got slapped down with.
[color=blue]
> Crunchyroll, like every single other site that charges money to view content
> which is not theirs, are a bunch of shitbag thieves that deserve jail time.[/color]

Unfortunately, though I agree with you, the more likely result will be
the complete dissolution of copyright -- there will be no ownership of
such content in the very, very, VERY near future. All it's going to
take is one case and one judge willing to put politics aside and make
a statement.
[color=blue]
> They are simply fortunate that they are stealing from an industry not big
> enough to squash them, and therefore will profit by it. Though the model
> they're using is a possibly useful one for legit companies to copy, the
> troll is completely correct in his depiction of them.[/color]

And will not only profit from it, but squash and replace it. (Their
legitimization at AX was a major step toward these last two ends.)
The only question is whether any _new_ content will come into the pipe
(and, within five years, it'll be far too expensive to do so, as I
told Sea Wasp several months back). I fully expect, either through
purchasing the carcasses of the remaining companies or by just the
right granted by the dissolution of copyright I inferred will probably
happen above, CrunchyShit will continue to profit as the sole source
(or at least the sole type of medium) of anime left when all others
fail.
[color=blue]
> In both cases, while their method was useful enough to be copyed by a legit
> firm (which I suppose could be considered "getting it"), they themselves are
> nothing but con artists who profited by illegal actions (actually, I'll give
> the Napster guy more credit, since he didn't likely guess at the scale of
> what he was creating, whereas the Crunchyroll people intended all along to
> sell their site for millions).[/color]

I don't even think they actually have sold the site -- I think someone
just bought in.
[color=blue]
> I wonder - is there any possible violation of copyright so blatant and
> unethical that it would actually be condemned by anime fandom? I guess Son
> May went out of business, but then again, Crunchyroll is worse than Son May.[/color]

I discussed earlier as to what kind of anime fandom might NOT be
considered some form of infringement, and I'm having some trouble
coming up with anything on that list even now. (Including artistry
and cosplay as trademark infringement, doujinshi and the like,
fansubbery, etc. and so forth...)

I don't believe the arrogance of anime fandom knows that many bounds.
It's one of the reasons I don't believe that they ever want their
actions to be put under legal scrutiny of any real kind.
[color=blue]
> With all due respect, fuck the makers of Crunchroll, and fuck anybody who
> ever used their service. And while I understand why the anime companies
> worked with them rather than trying to crush them, fuck them for doing that
> too; it's a horrible precedent and people like that should never be rewarded
> for their actions.[/color]

As I said, and the circumstances are proving me right, CrunchyShit is
going to win out and the actions of bankrupt/insolvent companies like
Gonzo represent capitulation to the thieves and shitheads who now,
effectively, run anime. The only real question is where on the
hierarchy of the most powerful people in US anime do you put King
CrunchyShit?

Mike (I put him no lower than about #3 or #4. Fukunaga is still #1,
for now - after that, it comes down to KCS, the head of Viz's Shonen
Jump, and the head of Bandai Entertainment USA...)

On Aug 20, 10:37*am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:[color=blue]
> Blade wrote:[color=green]
> > "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in message
> >news:g8hg98$jjl$1@registered.motzarella.org...[color=darkred]
> >> Like Napster, Crunchyroll is going legit from being criminal, and that,
> >> too, is a matter of someone in the industry "getting it".[/color][/color]
>[color=green]
> > And what, precisely, is it that they are "getting"?[/color]
>[color=green]
> > Napster was shut down by court order and then they used its well-known brand
> > name and logo for a completely different pay service.[/color]
>
> * * * * Napster was still fighting for its life when Bartelsman (I think it
> was) bought them and converted them to a pay service.[/color]

Much like Nixon tried to save face and resign, only to be saved by
Ford and his impeachable pardon?

Come on... They -- lost.
[color=blue][color=green]
> > Crunchyroll, like every single other site that charges money to view content
> > which is not theirs, are a bunch of shitbag thieves that deserve jail time.[/color]
>
> * * * * Which is the same as Napster was.[/color]

Worse, as Blade discussed already. I note you had no real answer for
him.

Mike

On Aug 20, 5:53*pm, Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
> No, it doesn't represent any loss of money at all. You can't be sure
> that if they were unable to download or pirate the content in any way
> that they would purchase the episodes. My bet is that no more than 50%
> would buy it.[/color]

What is the product: The anime itself, or the medium you get it on?

If the medium (the DVD as merchandise) is the product you are buying,
then we might be able to have an intelligent conversation.

If the anime itself is the product, the money is lost at the moment of
illegal viewing of the file -- perhaps even at its illegal download.

If they won't buy the product without stealing it first, they had no
right to the product, now or in perpetuity. Unless you believe the
anime is worth nothing to begin with...

Mike

[email]darkstar7646@gmail.com[/email] wrote on [Wed, 20 Aug 2008 18:10:21 -0700 (PDT)]:[color=blue]
> On Aug 20, 5:53*pm, Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:
>[color=green]
>> No, it doesn't represent any loss of money at all. You can't be sure
>> that if they were unable to download or pirate the content in any way
>> that they would purchase the episodes. My bet is that no more than 50%
>> would buy it.[/color]
>
> What is the product: The anime itself, or the medium you get it on?[/color]

Step back, reread what I said.

Just because someone gets something for free and it is illegal does not
mean they would pay for it.

Assuming that every download equates to a lost sale is flat wrong.

If it were not possible to download or receive without proper license,
there is no way in hell that all the people that are watching without proper
license would pay for it.

In other words, 1 download does not equal one lost sale.
[color=blue]
> If the medium (the DVD as merchandise) is the product you are buying,
> then we might be able to have an intelligent conversation.[/color]

The product is the show.
[color=blue]
> If the anime itself is the product, the money is lost at the moment of
> illegal viewing of the file -- perhaps even at its illegal download.[/color]

No, it's not. Because there is no way in hell that every download
equates to a lost sale.
[color=blue]
> If they won't buy the product without stealing it first, they had no
> right to the product, now or in perpetuity. Unless you believe the
> anime is worth nothing to begin with...[/color]

I did not say nor allude to either of those in my reply.

On Aug 20, 6:14*pm, Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:[color=blue]
> darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote on [Wed, 20 Aug 2008 18:10:21 -0700 (PDT)]:
>[color=green]
> > On Aug 20, 5:53*pm, Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:[/color]
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> >> No, it doesn't represent any loss of money at all. You can't be sure
> >> that if they were unable to download or pirate the content in any way
> >> that they would purchase the episodes. My bet is that no more than 50%
> >> would buy it.[/color][/color]
>[color=green]
> > What is the product: *The anime itself, or the medium you get it on?[/color]
>
> Step back, reread what I said.[/color]

Choosing to ignore the entire point of why I asked the question...
[color=blue]
> Just because someone gets something for free and it is illegal does not
> mean they would pay for it.[/color]

He non-sequitors.

They have no right to the product the moment they download it. Now,
again, the question: Is the product the anime or the DVD medium in
which the anime is transported to you? If it's the latter, then the
anime itself is essentially worthless and any rights to it
indefensible.

If the product is the anime itself, then one download == one lost
sale.

When you don't have the license to view the anime, you have no right
to the anime, now or ever -- unless the whole concept of such right is
worthless and indefensible.
[color=blue]
> Assuming that every download equates to a lost sale is flat wrong.[/color]

Then you believe the product is the DVD. That's why I asked the
question.

It also means you believe the anime to be financially worthless.
[color=blue]
> If it were not possible to download or receive without proper license,
> there is no way in hell that all the people that are watching without proper
> license would pay for it.[/color]

Good. And if they don't want to be anime fans as a result, so much
the better. That means they -- wait for it -- DO NOT GET TO VIEW THE
ANIME!!

You see, I used to think otherwise too, but now we see where that line
of thinking has to go.
[color=blue]
> In other words, 1 download does not equal one lost sale.[/color]

If you believe the anime itself not to be the product, and, therefore,
believe the anime to be worthless in the final (and financial)
analysis.
[color=blue][color=green]
> > If the medium (the DVD as merchandise) is the product you are buying,
> > then we might be able to have an intelligent conversation.[/color]
>
> The product is the show.[/color]

Then my argument applies. You have no right to view the show except
under the terms of the show's owners or their assignees.
[color=blue][color=green]
> > If the anime itself is the product, the money is lost at the moment of
> > illegal viewing of the file -- perhaps even at its illegal download.[/color]
>
> No, it's not. Because there is no way in hell that every download
> equates to a lost sale.[/color]

The viewing of an illegal product makes it a lost sale. You said the
show is the product, right?

Then you cannot view the show unless under the terms which were given
to you by the owners of the product.
[color=blue][color=green]
> > If they won't buy the product without stealing it first, they had no
> > right to the product, now or in perpetuity. *Unless you believe the
> > anime is worth nothing to begin with...[/color]
>
> I did not say nor allude to either of those in my reply.[/color]

Because you are full of it.

Mike

[email]darkstar7646@gmail.com[/email] wrote on [Wed, 20 Aug 2008 20:36:26 -0700 (PDT)]:[color=blue]
> On Aug 20, 6:14*pm, Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:[color=green]
>> darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote on [Wed, 20 Aug 2008 18:10:21 -0700 (PDT)]:
>>[color=darkred]
>> > On Aug 20, 5:53*pm, Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:[/color]
>>[color=darkred]
>> >> No, it doesn't represent any loss of money at all. You can't be sure
>> >> that if they were unable to download or pirate the content in any way
>> >> that they would purchase the episodes. My bet is that no more than 50%
>> >> would buy it.[/color]
>>[color=darkred]
>> > What is the product: *The anime itself, or the medium you get it on?[/color]
>>
>> Step back, reread what I said.[/color]
>
> Choosing to ignore the entire point of why I asked the question...[/color]

Perhaps it is you that is ignoring everything that might possibly be
common sense.
[color=blue]
> They have no right to the product the moment they download it. Now,
> again, the question: Is the product the anime or the DVD medium in
> which the anime is transported to you? If it's the latter, then the
> anime itself is essentially worthless and any rights to it
> indefensible.[/color]

I didn't say they had the right to see it, you inferred that from your
own warped mind.
[color=blue]
> If the product is the anime itself, then one download == one lost
> sale.[/color]

No, it doesn't. As I said, if it weren't possible to download it it
would still not equal a sale as it wouldn't be bought either.
[color=blue]
> When you don't have the license to view the anime, you have no right
> to the anime, now or ever -- unless the whole concept of such right is
> worthless and indefensible.[/color]

So, you are taking your response into an area that I didn't refer to at
all.

[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>> > If the medium (the DVD as merchandise) is the product you are buying,
>> > then we might be able to have an intelligent conversation.[/color]
>>
>> The product is the show.[/color]
>
> Then my argument applies. You have no right to view the show except
> under the terms of the show's owners or their assignees.[/color]

Which I didn't state that I agree or disagree with that statement.
[color=blue]
> The viewing of an illegal product makes it a lost sale. You said the
> show is the product, right?[/color]

No, it doesn't. As I said, just because someone viewed it for free
illegally doesn't mean they would have paid for it if paying was the
only possibly option of viewing it. Therefore a download does not equate
to a lost sale.

Also, the downloads that DO equate to a sale, how do you account for
those?
[color=blue]
> Then you cannot view the show unless under the terms which were given
> to you by the owners of the product.[/color]

To which I haven't stated my opnion.
[color=blue]
> Because you are full of it.[/color]

You are the one who is full of it, though you are trying to spew as much
of it up here as you can.