The Future

[author]

ladies and gentlemen,

this thread is about the future, a future of our humanity, our very planet and lives of all other living things in it.
one can not be certain of ahead, but that doesn't mean one shouldn't think ahead before moving onward.

note : It's not comprehensive explanation about future but only a glimpse on it .

there are some things that menaces the world :


Humans:

" Man is harder than rock and more fragile than an egg." ~Yugoslav Proverb


they said, humans are success of nature, but why it built its own enemy, perhaps it's bit forward to say such thing, but if we take great look at earth exactly, we'll see that most of planet problems comes from us.
but what's makes humans to do more damage than good, I'll tell you; it's the ignorance.
most people don't know it or won't admit it; of course it isn't utterly ignorance, it's relative so as they are things someones knows but others don't but doesn't make them ignorant for just lacking that sum.

ignorance gets its meaning when someone stops learning; he may see no purpose in it; may find it boring; may lack motivation; and more importantly the loss of will itself.
after that then, instead of understanding the world, he goes for enjoying the world.

according to Arthur Schopenhauer, German philosopher, he says : " here is only one inborn erroneous notion ... that we exist in order to be happy ... So long as we persist in this inborn error ... the world seems to us full of contradictions. For at every step, in great things and small, we are bound to experience that the world and life are certainly not arranged for the purpose of maintaining a happy existence ... hence the countenances of almost all elderly persons wear the expression of ... disappointment. "

yes, all the peoples concerns are on how to get a life with utmost joy,
that is not only a wrong path but also a prime one to face greediness, assumption, immorality, and many hundreds of things that ego can give.
but if anyone finds that he is to serve, to help, to built the future (not just ruin it ) is half way to save the mankind from being enemy of nature, thus also I'm socialist type but I prefer individuality over society; society can't be great while its individuals are lost; everyone must take a will to find his own true purpose, and then with these organs of body of society under disciplined will, we find humanity functional.
also people today cares more about science than ever but they should know science isn't the answer, it's not truth, merely a reflection of truth, made by our mind.

and also like Bertrand Russel said "... With every increase of knowledge and skill, wisdom becomes more necessary, for every such increase augments our capacity of realizing our purposes, and therefore augments our capacity for evil, if our purposes are unwise. The world needs wisdom as it has never needed it before; and if knowledge continues to increase, the world will need wisdom in the future even more than it does now. "... see ! the wisdom over science.


Robots:

1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. A robot must obey any orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.~Isaac Asimov


It's great to see robots everywhere, they're being developed by our knowledge, we hope to make something similar or superior than our species, soon robot will get conscience, freewill and last to think with what they got.
but if they start to get loose, from our own set of laws and rights which gives them irrelevant freedom, or by force of their own, abusing & sabotaging in their systems, servers or may some kind of place called " robots control center " .

they shouldn't have rights, they must exist only to serve, we don't have free space in earth for them to get welfare; why not help poor other people instead ?
for example in next 50 years, I can't stand sight of a robot visiting supermarket along with me, and says to me : " space it dammit ! "

or even worse try to exterminate humanity or slave them instead or use them for biological purposes...jeez!!!


Genetics:

"I'm one of those people you hate because of genetics. It is the truth." -Brad Pitt


well, genetics aren't problem itself, it's about how exposed they are to our troubling world we humans made, besides, there is field about genetics, and it's not something that allows mistakes, and also it can be fatal threat, even immoral using it -for example- to produce artificial humans ( ! ), or even - mother of mercy - genetic bombs, bullets, and diseases !


Plastics:

"Ben, I just want to say one word to you, just one word : plastics " ~buck Henry and Calder wellington, the graduate


plastics were miracle at first but became an enemy within in the end.
our lives are ruled by plastics, it's cheap, reliable and easy to manufacture and to shape. but bloody things are now mutating us... lots of cancers, specifically breast cancer, are caused by plastics, and they're everywhere, we're sitting ducks !
we can't stopping using them, neither we can't stop producing them ( for now ), but we can restrict it for more important usage, but... still you can't ! but there is something you can :

-never ever eat something hot by plastics, especially liquid foods !
it make plastic to release ( more ! ) ...some chemical-can't remember the names-...but all you need to know is it endangers you more than ever.....so never do that !


Cell phones:

“We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.”~Albert Einstein

it's about cellphones.... or more specifically should I say technology as it represents work of technology itself.
well, you will learn how still our use of science is still naive and rude.
cell phones are great, you can talk, chat, enter internet.... but with all of those advantages comes disadvantages;
cellphones have radiation and can be multiplied by if we place it near any electromagnetic object, like your PC, I once remember had my phone on front of speaker and it just modified incoming sounds ?!

it's best way to kill yourself or next generation of yours by carrying cellphone with you everywhere, recent researches showed that within an hour there was unexpectedly change of habit in hemoglobins of blood, making them less effective, to carry less oxygen...in other place, I heard it really hits sexual parts just as bad as to your blood.
so better to use it rarely, only in emergency, have it turned off in most places, especially within a building, and you can at least use fly mode.



Capitalism:

"Happiness: a good bank account, a good cook and a good digestion." ~Jean Jacques Rousseau


yes sir, eat, sleep and don't raise an elbow, capitalism got it all covered.
but this capitalism starts to hurts his unbelievers, steals their assets, make them and its own people as laborers, since the goal is not about humans, it's about profit, money itself, but it isn't bad for politics, it made world more peaceful than ever; no one can attacks a country that has high values of resources, it can have low military force because if someone dares others get involve with it too (and nearly makes the possibility of WW3 ! ) , but if there is poor country, it's open for an attack, some got conquered because of "hidden" resources in it and some are being slave to capitalist world, providing cheap laborers, the cash crops stuff, yeah they don't harvest it for food but to repay their debts and such to capitalist money lenders.

and more all this liberty and freedom stuffs aren't because of what we may call democracy, it's because the capitalism wants it ( for some of its own purposes ) or just don't want to bothers with social matters.

utterly the worst part of capitalism, is monopoly :
when one company reach enough to have monopoly over market, others start to lose businesses, bankrupts everywhere, many factories and producers are kept under pressure and duress, prices will be unreasonable, markets get odd, not only economical but also health problem, even social and more importantly political !
that's what happens if some company achieve monopoly, the all that capitalism saying of free market and competition will be lost.

for example : about all of American farmers are under the pressure of company named "Monsanto" , those farmers have to buy their seeds from that company , basically American agriculture is trapped into greediness of some food companies.
they have man everywhere, in FDA, in politics, you name it and if someone turns against them, he'll be followed by law and even sentences with millions of dollars to pay, no matter even that guy who called for justice is a just simple farmer ( or his little kid :X ), they're really a sick bastards in lawsuit.

about 90% of food products in US are made partly from corn , corn is popular in US, just as noodle in far east and rice in most parts of Asia.
but feeding cows in US is one of most bad ideas, it's cheap, but WTH, the cow wasn't naturally designed to digest corn and even to make things worse it increases a growth a dangerous bacteria-can't recall the name- into poor animal's stomach and from cow it comes to humans, BANG ! massacre !



Global warming:

you probably read, heard or watch about it already.
global warming, in other words, is just like " bombing our houses " for no purpose.
and with it comes all sorts of bad things, solar flares can now penetrate our "beloved" planet earth and also earth itself starts to change, space rocks can finally come into our air and hit our grounds nicely.
but before those, earth tries to react to this GW and predictably an Ice age will come which covers most of the planet.
also there is :

asteroid problem in future, some scientist says that in 2100 -i guess- it will hit the earth and tear it to pieces.
also if our air gets low in protecting the earth, soon smaller asteroid can hit and put a huge deep hole in our lands which may eat -for example- half of America's ground which next will be filled with water of ocean and then another where a huge mountain immediately rises because of asteroid hit's energy.
it will totally change a face of the earth


World War 3:

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." ~albert Einstein


when I was a kid, I didn't got the picture why Einstein should say such things, but now things are more clear than ever.

if this conflicts of countries, the competitions, the greed, all of such things keeps to continue and leave no place to love humanity, we will soon set our very own death trap.
especially besides politics, economy ( which mostly means capitalism in our times ) is also a cause of it, soon humans began to take much space, work less, eat more and give less, while earth endures it all, but then when earth start to suffer, we will soon watch the results of our own actions, also with all those consuming, companies want to produce, take, extract more from the earth, soon lots of parts of the earth becomes useless, and if many of it happens in one country, its people will start to suffer and die in high rate, mostly because of starvation and lack of welfare.

powerful countries like US and -like most futuristic critics said- China, will fight over the remaining resources in the earth, while other people around the world starts to suffer and call for help.
the fools instead of uniting ( peacefully ) under one banner and think to find solution, they find it easy to fight for what remains and guess what, they use all of weapons they stored and brings all of their side effects with it, and no matter who wins the WW3, the winner keeps all the resources for himself and billions of people will die in a decade, and what good has the winner achieved ?
only limited resources which dries out immediately and soon they'll start to starve too and everyone will start from stone age ( perhaps after passing that ice age ! ) ... the stupidity of mankind has shown his face.



okay, I think that's enough for today, hope it was useful, still there are many things that haven't been discussed or some of these are need of some detail, which you folks will give a hand in it and help us to know more about the future.

thanks for reading all of it
sincerely
author

[Sigma7]

Just for this debate I searched out my "Golden Book of Quotes"

Humans:
It isn't pretty when people hear only what they want to hear.
-Aisopos-

In today's society everything is so flowery and fluffy that people are "spoiled". They don't want and don't like to hear anything bad about our future and those who do speak are mocked down as rambling prohvets of doom. Only way they start talk about that is when all of their friends talk about that. We human are social creatures therefore we possess herd mentality. So no one or only few want to think with their own head. This is the cause of the slow progress in everything.

Don't judge a book by the movie that is made about it.
-Owen Eagan-

You can't judge humans by the movie that is made about them. Movies just contain some sort of message. They just bring us the possibility of what could happen.

Above all else I believe that humans are good in heart.
-Anne Frank-

People are ignorant, but it's not 'cause they are evil it's cause this is the way they have always believed to be the best for humanity.

It is that humans end all the wars or wars end all the humans.
-John F.Kennedy-

With the technology of war we have now one single war could end life on this planet. All the big noses know this so they try to use technology that is far more unethical than killing.

People must concentrate on both society and individuality. They both are equally important. If society cannot envolve so can't individuality.

People of today should care more of science. Without science animea.net would have never existed. Science is the seed and the energy of progress. But people should also care for spirituality. I do not mean that all people should choose a religion. I mean that people should take care of their mental needs and pleasures. And as I said earlier society and individuality are equally important. Society evolves thanks to science. Individuality involves thanks to spirituality.


Robots:

Firstly, what is a robot? A automated machine. (Catapult can be classified as robot too.)
Secondly, what is A.I? A program that is made to create an illusion of intelligence.

Basically what author is afraid of is the sum of these two thing in far future ... or not so far. Think of them like this, they are just chucks of metal or any other substance that is made to do stuff with rules "If this happens then do that in this way." Thrust me on this one. I take lessons of about robotics. And I even have built one.

Future robots don't need to be build after the face of man. They could be shaped in shapes unimaginable to us. I don't think think that anyone could give robots those rights of freedom. Robot after all is a automated machine. You wouldn't give human right to your car even if it was shaped as human.


Genetics:

Yes genetics aren't problem itself.

Nuclear bomb isn't the problem, problem is the usage and the person who uses it.
-Albert Einstein-

Every science can be turned dangerous if it is used in certain manner. Genetics aren't any different.


Plastics:

To add to this. One extremely dangerous chemical is more and more added to daily life. This chemical element is called Fluoride. One place where you find them is in the toothpaste. It is hard to find toothpaste that doesn't contain fluoride, these are usually expensive too. Fluoride is very poisonous. What are the signs of fluoride poisoning? -> Depression, mental numbness, perfect teeth. These are the most common ones. What can you do about it? Buy toothpaste and stuff that doesn't have fluoride in its ingredients. Yes that is the reason why children have to brush their teeth with lesser toothpaste on their toothbrush. If they took more. Poisons effects would show off much more clearly or even kill child.


Cell Phones:

Seems that I have been hit by luck. I haven't used a cell phone for 10 months. I accidentally broke it and I have been so lazy that I haven't bought a new on.


Capitalism:

I agree on everything.

But I want to add one thing. Capitalism gives people something to do. Companies may automate production. Technology could automate almost every field of dirty jobs in the world. If that happened. Imagine the amount of people looking to make something for living. This could lead to world wide chaos.


Global Warming:

There is two basic reasons why some people won't try to stop global warming.

Firstly, the technology is expensive and converting to environmentally technology is out of grasp of some companies or even out of grasp of some countries.

Secondly, some companies or countries don't find the idea of being environmentally friendly profitable to them.


World War 3:

If it happens many of us will be living out of out planet earth. On Moon. On Mars. In the solar system of Alpha Recticulae (or something). The colonizing of this last solar system is serious subject as this solar system contains one earth like planet. Engineers are working on a colony ship to this solar system. They say that this system will be colonized before Mars. They plan to launch the early stages in 2015. Not yet colonizing but sending a probe ship into this place.

[author]

first I want to thanks sigma for giving such suggetions; and I got to critic about some of his, other things that aren't quoted means that I totally agree with him.

People must concentrate on both society and individuality. They both are equally important. If society cannot envolve so can't individuality.

indiviuality over society; why ?
cause relying on society is just as same as expecting miracles, we are humans not just bunch of herds, everyone has diffrent unique background, mind, feeling... everyone lives in his own world.
so I don't mean individuality should be praised but to be center of attention.
best instrument to watch and teach individuals to build great society is education.
education, not only serves rights of everyone but if taken seriously can be massive affect to society itself; without greater education there is no greater public of sum of great people; my country has poor education and I self educated which puts me in conlifct in people around, it saddens me to see at college that it's rare to have people who knows english well... so poorly programmed my society is.

People of today should care more of science. Without science animea.net would have never existed. Science is the seed and the energy of progress.

I suggest you should read about karl poppers work which demonstartes science is not all...I can not express what I learnt to you, but as you saw I gave you a source.
besides his brilliant ideas was based on event of " theory of relativity " which einstien broke the chain of newtons influence on physics, it showed that sceince isn't a truth itself, but every time we come more closer to it by making tougher theories.

But people should also care for spirituality. I do not mean that all people should choose a religion. I mean that people should take care of their mental needs and pleasures. And as I said earlier society and individuality are equally important. Society evolves thanks to science. Individuality involves thanks to spirituality.

believe it or not my friend, I was going to use that word... but I couldn't as it's religious word; unreligious people won't sallow it, unless I generalize it ... wisedom is more general word, and very suitable for both sides.
and all of what I said is generalized, so that everyone can understand what I'm saying.

Firstly, what is a robot? A automated machine. (Catapult can be classified as robot too.)
Secondly, what is A.I? A program that is made to create an illusion of intelligence.

Basically what author is afraid of is the sum of these two thing in far future ... or not so far

technically you're right about the difination of robot;
but you're digressing or misleading... I said it need details but not focus on word, I meant on rights that humans would give to them.
and yes I was talking about "robots" , synthenic intellegent machine, what else?
it's unnecessary to state a word of robot, as we're living modern world with its own geist, for example: if you say to someone " do you know what robot is ", he will define it like what I said, words keep changing in meaning, also if you ask someone " name one of the robots of medieval" , surely that guy will think you're jocking.
another example is word of "gay"; what brings to your mind first? yes, homosexual... but we know in past it meant as cheerful or bright.
all I said is to not misunderstood what I said... what I meant about detail is about subject not the words.

Every science can be turned dangerous if it is used in certain manner. Genetics aren't any different.

also same goes to nanotechnology too; and it's not siceince that is dengarous, it's technology, there are diffrences.
yes all of them can be dangerous but such new techonologies as genetics and nano are total dengar...we can't just easily compare it to other old ones...you just don't know how serious they are !

To add to this. One extremely dangerous chemical is more and more added to daily life. This chemical element is called Fluoride.

this is not critic, but my special thanks to you... jeez, I could never thought such thing is dangerous...thanks man.

If it happens many of us will be living out of out planet earth. On Moon. On Mars. In the solar system of Alpha Recticulae (or something). The colonizing of this last solar system is serious subject as this solar system contains one earth like planet. Engineers are working on a colony ship to this solar system. They say that this system will be colonized before Mars. They plan to launch the early stages in 2015. Not yet colonizing but sending a probe ship into this place.

I expect such things, but...... unless we solve the problems we have on earth itself....just like socrates says, we should choose human itself as subject, not just his surroundings.
same like opinion popper has, he believes that before expanding and investing on it, we should solve our problems within society, otherwise making another plan of expansion just to solve problem within only leads to more problems.

[Sigma7]

I don't really agree with some points, (this is the debate thread eh?).

indiviuality over society; why ? cause relying on society is just as same as expecting miracles, we are humans not just bunch of herds, everyone has diffrent unique background, mind, feeling... everyone lives in his own world.so I don't mean individuality should be praised but to be center of attention.
best instrument to watch and teach individuals to build great society is education.
education, not only serves rights of everyone but if taken seriously can be massive affect to society itself; without greater education there is no greater public of sum of great people; my country has poor education and I self educated which puts me in conlifct in people around, it saddens me to see at college that it's rare to have people who knows english well... so poorly programmed my society is.

Thats why we need that these two things (society)(individuality) should be equal. Bad society won't let individuality evolve. Bad individuality won't let society evolve. We don't need education. Education just comes handy in daily basis. What we and every other person needs is awareness. Both self awareness and world awareness. Education just makes obtaining this awareness easier. As you said your good education puts you in conflict with people around you. But say, where it doesn't.

I suggest you should read about karl poppers work which demonstartes science is not all...I can not express what I learnt to you, but as you saw I gave you a source.
besides his brilliant ideas was based on event of " theory of relativity " which einstien broke the chain of newtons influence on physics, it showed that sceince isn't a truth itself, but every time we come more closer to it by making tougher theories.

I don't think physics as absolute truth. I think of them as a set of rules needed to operate in the machine called universe. And with every new theory we make the rules more accurate. But as the scientists lay out the rules somebody needs to put these rules in use. And for this there are engineers who design stuff according to the rules of the universe. Science above else helps to make life easier leaving more time to ourselves. More time to ourselves means faster development in the fields of individuality and society.

believe it or not my friend, I was going to use that word... but I couldn't as it's religious word; unreligious people won't sallow it, unless I generalize it ... wisedom is more general word, and very suitable for both sides.
and all of what I said is generalized, so that everyone can understand what I'm saying.

Wisdom actually means something else. One one-liner explains it.
Knowledge is knowing that the tomato is a fruit, but wisdom is not putting it into the fruit salad.
Wisdom means that you know what to do with your knowledge as much you have it.

technically you're right about the difination of robot;
but you're digressing or misleading... I said it need details but not focus on word, I meant on rights that humans would give to them.
and yes I was talking about "robots" , synthenic intellegent machine, what else?
it's unnecessary to state a word of robot, as we're living modern world with its own geist, for example: if you say to someone " do you know what robot is ", he will define it like what I said, words keep changing in meaning, also if you ask someone " name one of the robots of medieval" , surely that guy will think you're jocking.
another example is word of "gay"; what brings to your mind first? yes, homosexual... but we know in past it meant as cheerful or bright.
all I said is to not misunderstood what I said... what I meant about detail is about subject not the words

That's why people must know what word "robot" means. With the knowledge that robot is automated machine always in the minds of humans, humans will never give them these much feared rights. But making this word sound something supernatural is what makes people fear robots, as everything that we know nothing about is scary to us. But what I am concerned about are cyborgs. More accurately what I am worried about is that where is the line between robots and cyborgs. Cyborgs as you know are humans with mechanical body parts.

also same goes to nanotechnology too; and it's not siceince that is dengarous, it's technology, there are diffrences.
yes all of them can be dangerous but such new techonologies as genetics and nano are total dengar...we can't just easily compare it to other old ones...you just don't know how serious they are !

Science and technology themselves can't be classified dangerous or not dangerous. Science and technology are just tools. As you can kill with a hammer by striking at people but you can also build a house with it. Also you can evaporate people with laser but you can also cut extremely precise stuff out of anything. It's just how you use it, that's all. It doesn't matter what kind of science or technology it is.

I expect such things, but...... unless we solve the problems we have on earth itself....just like socrates says, we should choose human itself as subject, not just his surroundings.

Einstein also said: To solve a problem take care of the reasons not the symptoms. I think that it confirms your gist of the text. And makes it a little bit understandable. At least for me.

same like opinion popper has, he believes that before expanding and investing on it, we should solve our problems within society, otherwise making another plan of expansion just to solve problem within only leads to more problems.

I agree with you. However If we humans do not find more places to live in our planet become too overcrowded to do anything and at best we just die to hunger and lack of space.

[author]

Let us begin

I don't really agree with some points, (this is the debate thread eh?).

debate is a discussion in which reasons for and against something are brought out.
therefore you have rights- just as everyone- to say, criticize, suggest and also bring new ideas...no matter right or wrong.

Thats why we need that these two things (society)(individuality) should be equal. Bad society won't let individuality evolve. Bad individuality won't let society evolve.

first, compare to my tiresome work, yours is too thin and lacks reasons, if you believe in something, give it a reason please.

bad society? when it becomes bad? when it's contents, the individuals who are under its rule, become bad.
and only thing that moves and leads a society is govenment, and when governance of society reachs its effienciency ? when its individuals that controls government rule with responsability.

therefore both society and government which controls it, get their meaning only from individuals that made them.

As you said your good education puts you in conflict with people around you. But say, where it doesn't.

nah, my personal background doesn't relates to this topic, it was only given to clarify that how poor education can be bad; and "about good education" :
1. I was self educated.
2.it's not not about quality of my education, it's about how that offical education of my country is bad that even college boy guy can't speak english which it's essential for connecting to the world.
they do really lack minimum requirement of knowledge for being aware in the world.
( to readers : I'M NOT FRENCH so do not dig it as like I'm saying about France! )

Wisdom means that you know what to do with your knowledge as much you have it.

okay, let me show you how end of both are same.
first of all, the spirituality and wisdom, both can only act in field of knowledge, also all of human life is, on one can get beyond knowledge of his.

spirituality deals with matter of spirit which no secularist will accept that, and I respect their belief; a secularist would never agree on existance of spirits, but something should take that place, he finds the word of wisdom more "digestive".

wisdom is all for unreligious person who is equiped with reason while religious one accepts both, who is equiped with conscience but they are same, only like a coin with two diffrent sides, no matter what, both can and is ( if they're open minded ) indirectly ( subconscoiously ) got involved in conscience ( secularist thinks is his decision moral enough ) and reason ( religious one thinks how good his decision can be ) ;
if we look closely, we'll see how wisdom and spirituality on the same goal : to choose and do the best thin a man can do in his mortal life.
to clarify it : both are nothing but abstarct ideas that both leads to same practical result ( if done purely ) , which in pragmatic view, they're same alike.

I don't think physics as absolute truth

so you accepted physics ain't truth and as part of science so does the other fields of it.

We don't need education

Education just comes handy in daily basis.

Education just makes obtaining this awareness easier.

education ... just comes handy in daily basis and we don't need it? then you mean we know everything by ourselves without any educating!
and since you're saying, it come handy, then you mean it's unnecessary and irrelevant as we can obtain our daily basis with what we knew ourselves?
since when humans are born with mind filled of knowledge which has all we need for acquiring our basis.
yours is illogical statement which doesn't match to our reality.


so we don't need educaton? how can we have engineers, doctors, scientists, they all just can't run around to gain knowledge they need, they need stationary places where they can study about their fields with comfort and ease... education serves rights of men, everyone can choose profession they like, when it exists, everyone can achieve anything they like, be like they want.

but since you're saying education irrelavant then how do you want to find people under rightous rule?
how they can be like what they want ? how they can approve their profession to people since there is no place to gain degree and proofs which shows one is succeeded and worthy of that job...do you want to make people turn into society of castes ???
also history of mankind moves toward evolution, and education have a long history...do you remember medieval, how aware poeple of that time was? how educated they were?


you said all we need is awareness. I believe in it too, which I believe education is key -not cause- to move on path toward awareness and knowledge, but...
...since you said that education is unnecessary AND only just make obtaining awareness easier...then answer these two questions:

1. what is education?
2. how do you obtain awareness?

Science above else helps to make life easier leaving more time to ourselves. More time to ourselves means faster development in the fields of individuality and society

more time means faster development? do you think all people use their extra time for their own development and you don't see how they like to waste their time most?
since like your said -and I agree too- awareness is obtainable, it's not something that we had before and we put it in these parts, we'll see because of lack of awareness, they do waste their time on unuseful things.
those who want to develop themselves acheive it under any situations.

I agree with you. However If we humans do not find more places to live in our planet become too overcrowded to do anything and at best we just die to hunger and lack of space.

another illogical statement
since you're agreeing then why still insisting on expansion? :/
I wonder why didn't you suggest about population control laws instead ? it's far cheaper and easier to obtain which also follows those principles I told you before :)

[Sigma7]

bad society?

Bad society = (in my opinion) Where individuals have hard time living in. Lack of money (high prices, low wages), what generates criminals. Where high expectations from life are mocked down by others. There is something more, but I do not remember at the moment. This is my opinion.

when it becomes bad?

When prices rise and wages decrease (overall reason of crime). When money is valued over life quality. There may be something more, but as I earlier said I do not remember at the moment. This is my opinion.

nah, my personal background doesn't relates to this topic, it was only given to clarify that how poor education can be bad; and "about good education" :
1. I was self educated.
2.it's not not about quality of my education, it's about how that offical education of my country is bad that even college boy guy can't speak english which it's essential for connecting to the world.
they do really lack minimum requirement of knowledge for being aware in the world.

Sorry if I insulted you in any way.

spirituality deals with matter of spirit which no secularist will accept that, and I respect their belief; a secularist would never agree on existance of spirits, but something should take that place, he finds the word of wisdom more "digestive".

In that case secularists are just ignorant.

wisdom is all for unreligious person who is equiped with reason while religious one accepts both,

Only wisdom is for these kind of non-religious people who are ignorant. Non-ignorant non-religious people know that spirituality isn't only for religious people. Only difference is that non-religious one doesn't connect it with god where religious one may connect it with god.

who is equiped with conscience but they are same, only like a coin with two diffrent sides,

They seem more like two different sides of on two different coins in the wallet of mind. Why?
Wisdom = knowing how to put your knowledge to good use.
Spirituality = taking care of mind needs.
Reply with your definitions so we could know if we are talking about the same things.

religious one thinks how good his decision can be

By what do religious one define what is good and what is not?

so you accepted physics ain't truth and as part of science so does the other fields of it.

Yes, that was my bad. With physics I meant all of science.

education ... just comes handy in daily basis and we don't need it? then you mean we know everything by ourselves without any educating! and since you're saying, it come handy, then you mean it's unnecessary and irrelevant as we can obtain our daily basis with what we knew ourselves?

I mean we do not need education to live. We can live without knowing everything. Just like when in stone age we survived, didn't we? But it wouldn't be much of a life.

so we don't need educaton? how can we have engineers, doctors, scientists, they all just can't run around to gain knowledge they need, they need stationary places where they can study about their fields with comfort and ease... education serves rights of men, everyone can choose profession they like, when it exists, everyone can achieve anything they like, be like they want. but since you're saying education irrelavant then how do you want to find people under rightous rule?
how they can be like what they want ? how they can approve their profession to people since there is no place to gain degree and proofs which shows one is succeeded and worthy of that job...do you want to make people turn into society of castes ???
also history of mankind moves toward evolution, and education have a long history...do you remember medieval, how aware poeple of that time was? how educated they were?

I said we do not need education. I didn't say that everybody should stop obtaining it.

1. what is education?

Knowledge obtained from learning facilities. (Schools, colleges, wikivercity etc)

2. how do you obtain awareness?

By accepting that all people are the same and all people have their own dreams and goals and everyone has right for their opinion.

Improve my wording if you want. Because I feel that this sentence didn't come out that good.

more time means faster development? do you think all people use their extra time for their own development and you don't see how they like to waste their time most?
since like your said -and I agree too- awareness is obtainable, it's not something that we had before and we put it in these parts, we'll see because of lack of awareness, they do waste their time on unuseful things.
those who want to develop themselves acheive it under any situations.

It gives more time for it. You got to admit it. But how would people use this time for it? It's their own choice. But because some do not want to use this time for development doesn't mean that some others who want to use it should be ignored.

another illogical statement
since you're agreeing then why still insisting on expansion? :/
I wonder why didn't you suggest about population control laws instead ? it's far cheaper and easier to obtain which also follows those principles I told you before :)

If the world was under one ruler then this law could be made. However. For example here in Europe high birth is not problem, soon the opposite is. This law should be applied in less advanced countries. In these countries birth rate is very big.

Check this chart out: http://www.eoearth.org/article/Popul...tes_by_Country

Colonizing eases the burden on earth. In just FEW year earths population could reach very high numbers.

[author]

Bad society = (in my opinion) Where individuals have hard time living in. Lack of money (high prices, low wages), what generates criminals. Where high expectations from life are mocked down by others. There is something more, but I do not remember at the moment. This is my opinion.
When prices rise and wages decrease (overall reason of crime). When money is valued over life quality. There may be something more, but as I earlier said I do not remember at the moment. This is my opinion.

so...this is how you define "bad society"? only in economical view lad?

if you only want to emphasis on economy of society as mere explanation for society itself, ( not counting things like culture, politics, traditions, believes, etc.) then I should say for that, karl marx and his followers already done great job in that field, besides...so if we say in your way, good scoiety is that with good economics...so does countries like U.S looks perfect to you? you're saying other things doesn't matters?

Sorry if I insulted you in any way.

just wanted to make it sure that how education affects overall 'awareness". :)

Only wisdom is for these kind of non-religious people who are ignorant. Non-ignorant non-religious people know that spirituality isn't only for religious people. Only difference is that non-religious one doesn't connect it with god where religious one may connect it with god.

I believe in spirit; I know it isn't only for religions, but one can't force a belief on someone who doesn't have, now can he?

so you're unreligious AND still believe in spirits? what is it? is it a new "religion"...
surely you got yourself a new religion... I never saw a secularist would believe in spirit; spirit leads to metaphysic, metaphysic leads to god ( in spinozas belief metaphysic is not involved in god), spirit and god can't be seprated unless you're a buddhist or something like that..

It gives more time for it. You got to admit it. But how would people use this time for it? It's their own choice. But because some do not want to use this time for development doesn't mean that some others who want to use it should be ignored.

I agreed on that "more time" part lad; what I meant is most people like to waste it, but that was only information, the real sentence was in the end : real people develop themselves under any situations. I didn't meant they should be ignored; the point is such achievements are great but counts optional, not primary...anyone can evolve no matter where they live...this is something physchological which leads to will, motives and certain plans of man.

In that case secularists are just ignorant.

what? *coughs* Ahem! well :/ ...

I can't say einstein, hawkings, schopenhauer and all other great minds are bunch of "ignorant"s ... they may miss the fact about spirit...but it doesn't affects their overall work...efforts!
they really helped us, I feel sorry for them for not believing in spirit but...I respect them, they were brilliant at things which other people wasn't aware of, and helped us to gain one more step toward salvation.
besides would you like secularists call poeple like spinoza and descartes as ignorants too? just because they believed in spirit? ...they're already respected by most bright secularists.

They seem more like two different sides of on two different coins in the wallet of mind. Why?

Wisdom = knowing how to put your knowledge to good use.
Spirituality = taking care of mind needs.
Reply with your definitions so we could know if we are talking about the same things.

wisdom and spirituality..have you ever heard "theology" and "philosophy", what are their diffrences?
only this lad : philosophy is theology without counting god.
and so wisdom is spirituality without counting spirit.

this is not dictionary playground (childs playing)...
...both ( and everything we do in life) won't go outside our knowledge, so spirituality isn't exception.

Spirituality = taking care of mind needs.

what?.... nah I don't think so ... although I can't explain the thing which requires a year to explain

By what do religious one define what is good and what is not?

oh lad :o ... how do you believe in spirit but not in conscience?
conscience comes with spirit, I told it before... you have to reread and peruse that last post.

By accepting that all people are the same and all people have their own dreams and goals and everyone has right for their opinion.

Improve my wording if you want. Because I feel that this sentence didn't come out that good.

if this is awareness or way to obtain it.......then what is "human rights" anyway ? and does memorizing "human rights" make a person self-aware?....strange :/

Yes, that was my bad. With physics I meant all of science.

science is the most trusted type of knowledge in history of mankind therefore all other things ( which they are less trusted ) among science are nothing but a abstract ideas which they are only reflections of truth that made by our minds.

I said we do not need education. I didn't say that everybody should stop obtaining it.

I think what you was trying to say is " we don't need education FOR awareness ", right? you mean it's optional? well, I concur.

mean we do not need education to live. We can live without knowing everything. Just like when in stone age we survived, didn't we? But it wouldn't be much of a life.

stick to the times geist ( soul of time ), we live under diffrent era, so we need educations.
without specialized people, we'll surely starve to death ( about 90 % of earth population dies ) just because they are no one to manage our industrial world...still insisitng on life without education? and there is more than just survival, as I said and clarified it before we need it in these ages, if people want to have freedom and rights.

If the world was under one ruler then this law could be made. However. For example here in Europe high birth is not problem, soon the opposite is. This law should be applied in less advanced countries. In these countries birth rate is very big.

Check this chart out: http://www.eoearth.org/article/Popul...tes_by_Country

Colonizing eases the burden on earth. In just FEW year earths population could reach very high numbers.

why still insisting on colonizing ( within earth...for about space colonizing reread former posts) ?
they maybe on diffrent locations, but since they're on earth, the overall population will be the same, they'll consume the same, so what's the point of uniting FOR population?
it gives some cities a room to breath, but it'll only solve the probelm in appreance not in real since the earth itself becomes a country ( by uniting if we assume ) ...
...and also what makes you say that countries can not use population control laws and you said it without reasoning...
...just you said it doesn't make it right ( since there was no given reasons to demonstrate it ) ... just look at most plain example of all...china ... a country did it ( they have to... they'll be forced to ), laws are easy to put.

[Sigma7]

so...this is how you define "bad society"? only in economical view lad?

if you only want to emphasis on economy of society as mere explanation for society itself, ( not counting things like culture, politics, traditions, believes, etc.) then I should say for that, karl marx and his followers already done great job in that field, besides...so if we say in your way, good scoiety is that with good economics...so does countries like U.S looks perfect to you? you're saying other things doesn't matters

Basically socialism itself wasn't a bad idea at all. Bad was the way how russia enforced it. In today's society nearly everything is driven by money. It is called capitalism. But everybody have and will have different amounts of money. Bigger the sum, bigger the possibilities. As all need money to thrive some go the easy way and commit crimes. Those who commit crimes over and over are left out of society. That generates hate. People need to get rid of hate by expressing themselves somehow. So they live off the fustration on the society. The view of these people spreads and even more people do these things. This spreads the "witch circle" on more and more people. <- Thats how money affects society.

And USA doesn't look perfect to me at all. USA may have good economy (production of all sorts of products) compared to different counties, but this economy is only good for those who produce. The consumer is still in area of bad economy.

I believe in spirit; I know it isn't only for religions, but one can't force a belief on someone who doesn't have, now can he?

so you're unreligious AND still believe in spirits? what is it? is it a new "religion"...
surely you got yourself a new religion... I never saw a secularist would believe in spirit; spirit leads to metaphysic, metaphysic leads to god ( in spinozas belief metaphysic is not involved in god), spirit and god can't be seprated unless you're a buddhist or something like that..

If something isn't YET proved by science doesn't mean it can't be true. One thing is believing and other is logical thinking. Yes there are arrogant logical thinkers as there are arrogant believers.

Believer: Somebody who believes something that is fed to him without thinking.

Logical thinker(can't think of a better name for this group) : Somebody who by thinking everything logically (not emotionally) through and then decides what he thinks is right and doesn't follow common sense cause everybody else does. Logical thinkers aren't only limited to non-religious. If you thought everything through and still found that your religion is what complies with your sense of right and wrong then you have got my respect. Believing something only 'cause someone told so is taboo to logical thinker.

As for the spirit. As only on this little place called "Earth" are millions of different species why can't be in the universe billions and billions of different life forms. So a spirit(for me it is a being of made of energy) could exist even here on earth. Mayby spirits have always been here but we can't sense them.

I didn't mean spirituality as a religious experience but as some atheists define "spiritual" as nurturing thoughts, emotions, words and actions that are in harmony with each other. I also agree with the atheists. Although I am more of an agnostic than atheist.

I agreed on that "more time" part lad; what I meant is most people like to waste it, but that was only information, the real sentence was in the end : real people develop themselves under any situations. I didn't meant they should be ignored; the point is such achievements are great but counts optional, not primary...anyone can evolve no matter where they live...this is something physchological which leads to will, motives and certain plans of man.

As more used media application (TV, PC etc) spread thinking that people should waste their time in one or the other way. So can be spreaded other views. People can't start developing themselves if they even do not have the idea of it. So idea must be placed in people minds. Do they follow it or not is their own decision.

what? *coughs* Ahem! well :/ ...

I can't say einstein, hawkings, schopenhauer and all other great minds are bunch of "ignorant"s ... they may miss the fact about spirit...but it doesn't affects their overall work...efforts!
they really helped us, I feel sorry for them for not believing in spirit but...I respect them, they were brilliant at things which other people wasn't aware of, and helped us to gain one more step toward salvation.
besides would you like secularists call poeple like spinoza and descartes as ignorants too? just because they believed in spirit? ...they're already respected by most bright secularists.

This post you read now should have already explained what I meant as spirituality. I think those secularists just decline to believe the religious side of spirituality. If the non-religious side was introduced to them some of them wouldn't decline it anymore.

wisdom and spirituality..have you ever heard "theology" and "philosophy", what are their diffrences?
only this lad : philosophy is theology without counting god.
and so wisdom is spirituality without counting spirit.

A standard philosophical definition says that wisdom consists of making the best use of knowledge. As with any decision, a wise decision may be made with incomplete information. The technical philosophical term for the opposite of wisdom is folly.

this is not dictionary playground (childs playing)

We can't debate on subjects when one speaks of one thing and another one speaks of the second thing although the word is written the same.

what?.... nah I don't think so ... although I can't explain the thing which requires a year to explain

Then at least give a shallow idea.

oh lad :o ... how do you believe in spirit but not in conscience?
conscience comes with spirit, I told it before... you have to reread and peruse that last post.

But the question was that from what does religious people judge what is gad and what is bad?

if this is awareness or way to obtain it.......then what is "human rights" anyway ? and does memorizing "human rights" make a person self-aware?....strange :/

Human rights are not to be memorized but to be followed. And when they are written down then these laws can not be ignored as much as just plain morality.

science is the most trusted type of knowledge in history of mankind therefore all other things ( which they are less trusted ) among science are nothing but a abstract ideas which they are only reflections of truth that made by our minds.

Science is a way to describe world with logic. All the others are describing the world the way they seem right of simpler. As all the religions try to describe world to humans so that people could understand it, science takes it deeper with the only objective - to understand the world.

I think what you was trying to say is " we don't need education FOR awareness ", right? you mean it's optional? well, I concur.

Education just plants the idea into the mind with other things. But this little idea can be planted in other ways too. Like with TV.

stick to the times geist ( soul of time ), we live under diffrent era, so we need educations.
without specialized people, we'll surely starve to death ( about 90 % of earth population dies ) just because they are no one to manage our industrial world...still insisitng on life without education? and there is more than just survival, as I said and clarified it before we need it in these ages, if people want to have freedom and rights.

90% of earth population that dies without education is then 90% of human population that is over the balance of earth natural food supply. But these are just crude numbers and speculations.

why still insisting on colonizing ( within earth...for about space colonizing reread former posts) ?
they maybe on diffrent locations, but since they're on earth, the overall population will be the same, they'll consume the same, so what's the point of uniting FOR population?
it gives some cities a room to breath, but it'll only solve the probelm in appreance not in real since the earth itself becomes a country ( by uniting if we assume ) ...
...and also what makes you say that countries can not use population control laws and you said it without reasoning...
...just you said it doesn't make it right ( since there was no given reasons to demonstrate it ) ... just look at most plain example of all...china ... a country did it ( they have to... they'll be forced to ), laws are easy to put.

We need to colonize other places besides of earth. If not only for the living space but for resources. Colonizing is a must in near future. Why were the population laws enforced. Because there is little room for quick growing population. But with colonizing this room is created and no such laws are needed. I can't see why colonizing could me so bad. If you colonize something you start on that place from a blank sheet.

[author]

Basically socialism itself wasn't a bad idea at all. Bad was the way how russia enforced it. In today's society nearly everything is driven by money. It is called capitalism.

I rather like this socialism to be in our discussion, and any opinion about it by everyone is welcomed.

socialism, is the system of government we will have in future, though the term of socialism is unknown somehow, it changes, and it is good to change although most of its basis remained the same.

Russia was horrid for its own communist system; I like Lenin for his effort and careful plans, he was hero of 20th century, in those days no leader would have been nice and great as him, alas, in general history we read less about great works of such great men and only read admiration on some parasites and those who win some war and so, so many lies, so many forgotten facts.
but after Lenin, hell broke out loose, Stalin and his substitutes made hell, being militarist and too ambitious in conquest and space projects wasn't good idea.
but before I say anything about socialism, I need to study and research a bit, one must not say what he have knowledge of.

As all need money to thrive

uh uh!- we don't need money to thrive but to survive; frankly, I didn't saw any affluent fool became wise by just because of having money, the things doesn't makes us to thrive, it is us who make ourselves to thrive, we alone are source of joys and sorrows, we alone hold the rein of our own destiny, therefore whatever we buy things and so, if we don't peer and think about their matters, it's useless and nothing can't help it, except there might be things too which gives potential we need to thrive, but all depends on us, to use it or not.
so even if one has most riches, still can't have understanding of world, if he don't use it on wisdom of himself.
there is something precious more than any wealth, along with knowledge: health
health is above all, without health, utterly, affluent or wise, both suffer, and days get harsh.

Those who commit crimes over and over are left out of society. That generates hate. People need to get rid of hate by expressing themselves somehow. So they live off the fustration on the society. The view of these people spreads and even more people do these things. This spreads the "witch circle" on more and more people. <- Thats how money affects society.

well said lad, but there are those who break the circle, authors and good doers, scientists and philosophers, artists and critics, they all affect us ( ofc those who CARE), only we need is valid types of those people and quite vast sum of population with open ears, otherwise there will be no changes, except if a miracle happens!
socialism of Communist proved wrong that economy built culture by itself, it is quite opposite.

And USA doesn't look perfect to me at all. USA may have good economy (production of all sorts of products) compared to different counties, but this economy is only good for those who produce. The consumer is still in area of bad economy.

and neither I am fond of US, for they live on being parasite, what business do they have in other parts of world announcing that they fight for justice and freedom, most capitalism fanatics says if it's a fail why it succeed? , sadly they don't see the only reason that capitalism prevails is that the imperialism still draws breath, in stealth mode, and how? by economy...
... the only reason of imperialism is to take the things by force from outsiders, and so this is their aim, they learned to left other things like governing, managing. creating a puppet is far beneficial for their plans, right now, we see (!) it nowadays how they economically put other countries under pressure.

to readers: notice that we are talking about government, not its people.

the presence of US and his lapdogs is visible to anyone who care about politics:
-in Sudan where they want to separate the nation into two, which means, let northerners die on their own, while riches of southern of country kept safe NOT for its people but for parasites, the US and his lapdogs.
-in Congo, there was man named renzo martens, made a documentary film named "enjoy poverty". in his work, he showed how Congolese people are suffering because of foreigner presence, companies which owned and run by foreigners, nothing serious had been left for them, all help in the name of UNICEF or UN comes is fake, and they are just names nothing more, this change everyone view that those who said are fighting for human right's cause are nothing but just bunch of self serving impostors!
the presence of military units of UN against militias in Congo isn't for its poor people but defending valuable points of parasites like famous gold mines of congo, and frankly the people ain't in need of military support, because the film showed how militia groups and villagers are close with each other, frankly militia troops only aims to take their motherland's resources back, yet they being called in out of country by "civilized and enlightened" people a terrorist (!)
-in middle east is where big cashes comes, arabs are as good as being underdog of US for about decades, oil, gas, whatever valuable US gets its share, don't dare to call it extortion ? they're just taking their protection money for serving justice into the lands of middle east.
seems in Iraq, they have developed their own puppets and have to call yankees home, or else it would be bad for business in homeland, in Afghanistan [and Pakistan] they train their troop and test their guns on poor pakis and afghans, seems they enjoy bombing homes of civilians with UAS (air drones?) they just newly brought.
in any other part of worlds I have limited knowledge, so if anybody knows it, feel free to spoil it out here.

a little irony :

taken from : xkcd.com

If something isn't YET proved by science doesn't mean it can't be true. One thing is believing and other is logical thinking. Yes there are arrogant logical thinkers as there are arrogant believers.

Amen to that.

People can't start developing themselves if they even do not have the idea of it. So idea must be placed in people minds. Do they follow it or not is their own decision.

the idea isn't just a simple idea, many ideas needs to be fed to a guy to get his whole idea, a quite comprehensive idea, maybe a basis for his thoughts-maybe, but as I experienced myself, it's better to see the world by eyes of many, the eye of philosopher, the eye of scientist, of artist, of worker, of any expert you may find in your way, which it's best to have appetite to learn from anything, even from small matters, even from everyday failure that might happen, the knowledge alone IS power!

A standard philosophical definition says that wisdom consists of making the best use of knowledge. As with any decision, a wise decision may be made with incomplete information. The technical philosophical term for the opposite of wisdom is folly.

a standard "philosophical" definition you said? well philosophy itself is shakable therefore none can prove and state that thing will be it same like before, only thing I think that will not change is change itself!
as Schopenhauer said : ((change alone is eternal, perpetual, immortal. ))

this is what I experienced, the wisdom and spirituality are brothers/sisters...just like any other subjects: mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology, etc ....they aren't alien toward each other, everything matters in one, affects another, in fact, there are one, the world don't even knows what math is? it have its own "laws" ...the things humans had discovered is what they saw from nature and experiments and thought itself.

We can't debate on subjects when one speaks of one thing and another one speaks of the second thing although the word is written the same.

I concur, let us leave this part about spirituality and wisdom as also it has nothing to do "directly" with future much.

Then at least give a shallow idea.

can you explain universe? no? then be quiet about this part. besides there are things one should experience it by himself, as Socrates/Plato said, if you tell people the truth they'll start to hurt you.
it is up to everybody to leave their dim caves and embrace the rays of enlightenment.

But the question was that from what does religious people judge what is gad and what is bad?

why do you referring to religious people, I'm not talking on their behalf, frankly I'm called religious by those who don't have the believe and heathen by those who don't want to change their traditions.
I am what I am, one can't be just something. I may be a rationalist, religious, philosopher, author, poet, materialist, Idealist, naturalist, engineer, etc ....one can not be just one and those who settle themselves on one and make it as their fortress is like what lichtenberg said:

we say that someone occupies an official position, whereas it is the official position that occupies him.

how I hate nowadays, we have many people who do nothing, they are philosophers who says gibberish or tend to do mild things and rebuild or reintroduce work of others, they should be called historians of philosophy instead.
also in art, too much fake styles, too much excessive actions, do they call it art? or is it just for money and fame, esp. serving the luxury I see! and if we read their histories, we'll see that how they defend their petty ideas so they don't loss their livelihood, even for this livelihood they dare to say older styles in art were all fake and gibberish, what nonsense!
in channels everywhere, there are critics who bark like dog, few make sense, others bark like hell, they just want food, so give them a meat for now so they can stop barking....bloody dogs!
in literature, we have enough admirable books but ...
...but just to see the world of the literature, damn, what in damnation happened here?
I see authors who wrote for the money, making much fictions, esp. publishing their works in series like so they can suck more money, but what the hell had happened to society of readers? just like we got good people and people who fake it, we got veritable readers and readers who only read junk.
mark twain made quite funny quote about them:

the man who doesn't read read good books has no advantage over one who can't read.

also

"classic" a book which people praise and don't read

how sad modern people don't care about wisdom of past, it is not just in books but in movies, theaters (if they go), they don't go there to have insight in good films but merely wants to see none stoppable actions and romance , even go to see just some actors who are presents in them.

Human rights are not to be memorized but to be followed. And when they are written down then these laws can not be ignored as much as just plain morality.

surely you didn't get the irony I meant???
ofc, also even if we reason it, how can we follow it without memorizing it, huh?
but let's leave that or else you would just keep quoting irrelevant parts of speech.

oh absolutely laws can be ignored easily, just being out of sight of authority is enough to make villains do their dirty work, and NO!!! we must not insist on making authorities to be above our heads anytime nor have neighborhood watch or anything, turning a country into police estate IS a bad idea lad.
we must show AND motive individuals that how goodness, honesty, responsibility, etc, can affect not only world but themselves too, and "human rights" stuff do nothing, it's just plain law, who cares, then it is mind that must change, to change "who cares" into " I care" (but not human right laws, get over it lad, of all things it doesn't even make sense about serving judgment to world) ...the golden rule is best for one to how act good (and it's an example, not a substitute of "human rights") :

One should not treat others in ways that one would not like to be treated

Science is a way to describe world with logic. All the others are describing the world the way they seem right of simpler. As all the religions try to describe world to humans so that people could understand it, science takes it deeper with the only objective - to understand the world.

we talked before; science isn't an end nor describe the world (we can't never know what world thoroughly is )
all you need in this world (for at least) is to know yourself, get to know yourself, it is more useful than being fan of science (something which is shakable itself).
then you can move to know the world, you will get to know better than just to get to know world before knowing yourself. science helps, science shows but not all of matter, there are always things behind a thing.

Education just plants the idea into the mind with other things. But this little idea can be planted in other ways too. Like with TV.

yeah, video games (,etc) too, though above all, they must be something valid, not just some so called funny shows which only things they do is that they call themselves gay every minute, and some video games that only things one do is to click the mouse and spray his gun upon noob-bot enemies (or some players in multi mode) , there are many games, that are educational, games like totalwar series, civilization, etc are great at teaching new things.

90% of earth population that dies without education is then 90% of human population that is over the balance of earth natural food supply. But these are just crude numbers and speculations.

I shall say, it is you who will find your words quite crude.

first of all, it wasn't from me, but researchers of documentary film, and it's ABOUT not an exact percentage, and why not?

it's easy to sit on soft chair and say, yes it's impossible.
but use your imagination. imagine after a week that everything left alone, no professionals present to control the reins of modern industry.

1. no power!
without it, we can't work on darkness, surely it reduce our efficiency, critically lowering our produces and activities on night.
without power, no water, no telecommunications, nothing!!! you can't burn, cook, wash, watch, listen, drive, handle, all verbs went to fail without involvement of power. with no power, no industries, no industries means no modification and products, without modifications we must now eat plain and can't save food more than 2 days, without products, what we have becomes much valuable, also people need stuff everyday, all becomes hell!!
without power, no management on road, no fuel transform, no exchanges, every city will be on its own.
soon people start to feel hungry, they may even attack each other for food, kill each other and BBQ themselves, it isn't funny, it happened many times in history where towns besieged, many people who endured hunger for a month start to kill their own children for food!!!
not all do that, as not all are cruel, but see, that every country is in need of other country and with no connection, we will have not their supplies, merchandise, the goods, surely these lacks hurts!

2.no water!
simple, no power, no water, then all will search for pure, clean waters, we venture to mountains, caves, rivers; without water, we can't keep our thought on higher concerns, which when all these disaster comes no one can think for a solution, every one fighting for survival.

3. no decent food!
without connection, no import nor export. without connection, no farming, no food, no fertilizer, no machine to work with on land, they must work harder and with insects all hell broke loose!

4.no personal safety/hygiene/etc

with nothing and all lost, it's about time some rascal will dare for your live, your assets, your family or anything that relates to you; without hygiene, your body suffers, disease, sickness, aches, pains, uncomfortableness, argghhh imagining it hurts! even parasite may lay eggs under human skins and also attract many bacterias , microbes, ....
... and with no vaccines will surely almost everybody dies, many children from birth get sick and dies, many casualties.....how do you still think it as crude number? would like to see it happen to you to feel how bad it is?

5. no fun, no learning, only survival

the progress of knowledge vastly reduces and loss many of its archives, low in number are those who seek and want to help others, by gathering knowledge and think of inventing instruments.
yet with no machines, everything turns out far difficult.
also the loosen frustration itself leads to suicides, people of generation where they had quite comfortable welfare in their past life now facing disaster are too reduced in mental spirit that almost none wants to live another day, maybe next generation of them will endures as they never saw past, and were born in disaster, they may like to hear fables of past wonders and how mankind made machine and such....come to think of that.

We need to colonize other places besides of earth. If not only for the living space but for resources. Colonizing is a must in near future. Why were the population laws enforced. Because there is little room for quick growing population. But with colonizing this room is created and no such laws are needed. I can't see why colonizing could me so bad. If you colonize something you start on that place from a blank sheet.

why are you insisting...still? it proves nothing as long as you don't bring more reasons, if you have nothing more to add , close this part of discussion and let others decide, I said my part already before and won't like to insist in return, so let it be.

as Francis bacon said, in novum organum, I, 46 :

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. And though there be a greater number and weight of instances to be found on the other side, yet these it either neglects and despises, or else by some distinction sets aside and rejects, in order that by this great and pernicious predetermination the authority of its former conclusions may remain inviolate.

to add a little about this part of topic (and my last one which this part real tired me off) : both two brilliant ancient philosophers, Aristotle and Plato, famous also for being arguing about and neglecting each others ideas, were agreeing on same thing : that one society -if it want to thrive- must have low population at its hand.

[RebbieChan]

Humans:

I’ll agree with you that ignorance is what makes us do “more damage than good” but I wouldn’t say that people searching for joy is a concern. I get, and again, agree with you in the sense that it can lead to immortality and greed.

What humans need to do is find the balance, what is good and brings us happiness, and what is bad and can have negative effects.

Life is not about society, life is selfish. If we are not trying to be happy, than what is life? It’s pointless. But if that happiness comes at the expense of others it is not worth it, and we can find a new happiness.

Yes, in life people should think about consequences for other generations to come after, but it is not our purpose. It’s our duty.

Science? Funny that I study the field of science and I completely agree that it is just, in a sense, made up nonsense. We want explanations for things, even though those things may not be comprehendible by the human mind. As you can see, science is not my passion.

Robots:

A little Sci-fi here, huh? No, I get what your saying and it is a pretty big possibility. The thing is, we should simply not make robots that think solely for themselves. Honestly, haven’t we learned by now that depriving things of rights only brings on more problems?

Genetics:

Oh God, yes. Genetics (I’m convinced, at least) will be the end of us. We think we can control what our babies come out to be, we think we can clone animals without harmful side-effects. We think, but we can’t.

Humans trying to play God never works out and will never work out. Regardless if one believes in God or not, we are not Gods and we can never be.

Plastics:

Not much to add here except, cancer sucks. If there is one thing in this world I hate, it is this disease. It’s funny that we create more cancer from our creations day by day and still “try to fight it” Ha! That’s a load of crap!

Cell phones:

Useful, but addicting. I use my phone only a couple times a month while everyone I know has their phone out, literally, 24/7. Yay, more cancer. Yay, more addictions. Just what we need >_>

Capitalism:

I don’t give a crap about politics. I kinda like what Hong Kong has going on (sorta, again I don’t really care about this sort of thing). But, living in a profit based country, I do know how people begin to work. “Well, it doesn’t matter if we get in one or two lawsuits, we make enough money to pay it of and still make profit”

America, is greediness. Known fact. Of course, we hide behind trying to help other countries when in reality, that there is another act to “save” people before someone else. Also that cow thing…that’s actually something to do with genetics again. It’s not the corn that’s the problem, it’s the hormones and cloning and all that stuff that causes these problems. (Trust me, I come from a small farming town)

Global Warming:

Is debatable. We are destroying our ozone layer or whatever, but you must understand the earth goes through stages. At the moment, we are just going through a stage in the earth’s cycle. It is possible, and very likely, that another Ice age will come, or that a heat wave will come.

Not to be bitter, but I don’t think humans will be around much after 2100 whether or not asteroids come.
^What I mean here is this:
In a sense, society has always thought this. What is society without improvements? Our minds cannot comprehend what could come next, cannot think beyond what is already there (save those few genius inventors, of course). Could greeks or romans think we could create the weapons we have? The technologies?
So, in other words, I mean that I know and can imagine what we could create with today's technologies, but I also understand that this could come fairly fast. If we don't make new technologies or ideas, what will we be? If we do, I can't understand what they could be without the knowledge of them.
Then, in combatant to the death by astroid theory, maybe what we will create is something that saves us. But with current knowledge we know not what that is.

WW3:

Yeah, the US is not going to able to do much if china gets involved, we owe them everything. I’d be more worried about the countries newly rising into economic power, within the next twenty-fifty years we won’t be anywhere near as we are to being a world power.

I do think that either we will find peace (which is hard to imagine, or destroying everything in war. But war has always happened so it’s not like we should be surprised.

(I haven’t read the other posts yet, only read and replied to the first, if I am outdated in my discussion please clarify so for me)

One thing, though, just because you use quotes does not mean you are putting a better or more researched opinion on the table, you are merely reflecting/agreeing with/disagreeing with the opinion of the quote in which you used. Not to sound rude or anything, but I’ve many times have people quoted things, but then have put little thought into the argument themselves or do not have their opinion on it. This is just my experience so I felt I had to clarify this.